Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
The bacterial data may be a indicator of a healthy system.
Definitely agree on the pathogens.
This is what I've dreamed of for so long! Testing for microbes in our tanks!
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The bacterial data may be a indicator of a healthy system.
Definitely agree on the pathogens.
Yeah Exactly what I was thinking as I wouldn’t know a herpes virus from a Andromeda strain from space
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
I get it, but it's a starting point. Guides and suggestions on adjustment would be needed.
SuncrestReef
That Apex guy
The first round of testing was water column only. The latest test I just sent in included a swab from inside the overflow pipe. Waiting for these results.
Seems to me we have to start somewhere. As long as we don't blindly start reacting to the information we should be able to amass a set of data that's actually of some use. I agree that at first some may be of little use. But just like when we started data collection in other fields we had more information than we knew how to interpret. However, with time we learned to make correlations and recognize patterns in the data. That has led to new tech and ways to improve. For sure the snake oil crowd will show up, we just have to ignore them and stick to educating ourselves.
Dr. Dendrostein
Marine fish monthly
Finally, excited, very curious. Thanks for sharing, comradeFinally someone has done it. To be able to test for microbes strains in our tanks!
This could be very helpful!
The core microbiome of a saltwater aquarium
Microbiome testing for aquariums and aquacultureaquabiomics.com
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
Your very welcome!
I come from the Big Skeptical City, (aka BS city)
I 'd like to see a comparison of similar data from wild reef waters (oceanic and lagoon) connected with a survey of the general health observed among the organisms on these same reefs to compare with the average reef tank. Otherwise, it is just data and starting somewhere. The problem with a large multivariate equation solution is that you need random good luck to correctly solve it.
Wow, the auto correct changed B-ravo S-Ierra into Charlie Romeo Alpha Papa! Sorry for the BX!
I 'd like to see a comparison of similar data from wild reef waters (oceanic and lagoon) connected with a survey of the general health observed among the organisms on these same reefs to compare with the average reef tank. Otherwise, it is just data and starting somewhere. The problem with a large multivariate equation solution is that you need random good luck to correctly solve it.
Wow, the auto correct changed B-ravo S-Ierra into Charlie Romeo Alpha Papa! Sorry for the BX!
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Interesting! My hat is off to a pioneer.
How would you use this $100 data set?
With only twenty aquariums studied, what is the significance of this information? What does it mean and is the meaning valid given the extremely small dataset? Why didn’t he demonstrate the usefulness of his service by determining what is in Waste-Away and studying why that product needs to be continually dosed? And why was there no dinoflagellate and diatom data, something that seems to plague many aquarists and could actually be useful? As for cyanobacteria, we probably only need to know about a few pesky benthic species and don’t need information any on the pelagic species. And why not a simple demonstration of the bacteria removed by skimming or killed by Chemi-Clean. So much that he could have done.
Right now there appears to be more salesmanship than science for this service.
How would you use this $100 data set?
With only twenty aquariums studied, what is the significance of this information? What does it mean and is the meaning valid given the extremely small dataset? Why didn’t he demonstrate the usefulness of his service by determining what is in Waste-Away and studying why that product needs to be continually dosed? And why was there no dinoflagellate and diatom data, something that seems to plague many aquarists and could actually be useful? As for cyanobacteria, we probably only need to know about a few pesky benthic species and don’t need information any on the pelagic species. And why not a simple demonstration of the bacteria removed by skimming or killed by Chemi-Clean. So much that he could have done.
Right now there appears to be more salesmanship than science for this service.
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
I have no skin in this game, but it's a start and down the road could lead to some insight to how we reef. Too early yet.
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
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My Tank Thread
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I think the obvious huge limitation is that even if one could somehow get a numerical analysis of all planktonic species, it is believed that the majority of bacteria are attached to surfaces of various types.
AquaBiomics
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Hi everyone,
As the owner of the company I'd be happy to answer any questions. There have been a lot asked already in the thread so forgive me if I miss some. I'd like to start with a few of the more important points.
1. I promise: no snake oil. I'm selling a testing service; whoever compared it to ICP is exactly right.
You will notice my site is conspicuously absent of promises that "this bacterium is bad" or "this bacterium is good". We simply don't know enough yet to make those claims.
2. By building a large database of samples from hobbyist and aquaculture tanks, we will learn a lot. I already have some data in hand and am gathering more.
3. There is some skepticism about what this means. Skepticism is a wise default position, but please do note what my service claims or does not claim. I claim to be able to identify the microbes in your tank, and provide information about what those microbes do. I will stand by those claims, since they are the basis for most modern microbial ecology.
I do NOT claim that I can sell you a magic bottle that will make everything happy. Or even that we understand everything about the microbes we find. In the reports, I try hard to not overstate the conclusions.
I've spent the last 20 years in Academia, so I'm comfortable with disagreement and discussion. Don't be shy about disagreeing - my service is simply DNA sequencing, I'm not selling bacteria. So I won't be offended if someone has an argument why bacterial type X is unimportant. (If there is someone who thinks it doesn't matter what kind of microbes are in your tank, I would disagree, but I'm not sure anyone in the reefing world holds that opinion anyway! And it would be an interesting discussion in any case)
4. Finally (for this post), some have raised the question of planktonic versus surface associated bacteria. Its an important distinction. But please recognize that water is constantly circulating past the surfaces in our tanks -- the biofilm microbes show up in the water column too. Lots of evidence in hand now to show this.
With that said, our first round did show that for a more sensitive analysis of biofilm microbes, we should include a direct sample of the biofilm. This contains important ammonia-oxidizing and nitrate-oxidizing microbes. So current sampling kits include a biofilm sample too.
I'm gonna stop there for now, but I'll come back and answer questions. There is a link on the main page of the company website that describes a basic overview of the microbes that live in reef tanks. Soon I'll be adding my analysis of differences between tanks, and my cycling experiment studying the succession of microbes in new aquariums started various ways.
We have a lot to learn - but the way we learn is by collecting data. Thats what my service is for.
-Eli
As the owner of the company I'd be happy to answer any questions. There have been a lot asked already in the thread so forgive me if I miss some. I'd like to start with a few of the more important points.
1. I promise: no snake oil. I'm selling a testing service; whoever compared it to ICP is exactly right.
You will notice my site is conspicuously absent of promises that "this bacterium is bad" or "this bacterium is good". We simply don't know enough yet to make those claims.
2. By building a large database of samples from hobbyist and aquaculture tanks, we will learn a lot. I already have some data in hand and am gathering more.
3. There is some skepticism about what this means. Skepticism is a wise default position, but please do note what my service claims or does not claim. I claim to be able to identify the microbes in your tank, and provide information about what those microbes do. I will stand by those claims, since they are the basis for most modern microbial ecology.
I do NOT claim that I can sell you a magic bottle that will make everything happy. Or even that we understand everything about the microbes we find. In the reports, I try hard to not overstate the conclusions.
I've spent the last 20 years in Academia, so I'm comfortable with disagreement and discussion. Don't be shy about disagreeing - my service is simply DNA sequencing, I'm not selling bacteria. So I won't be offended if someone has an argument why bacterial type X is unimportant. (If there is someone who thinks it doesn't matter what kind of microbes are in your tank, I would disagree, but I'm not sure anyone in the reefing world holds that opinion anyway! And it would be an interesting discussion in any case)
4. Finally (for this post), some have raised the question of planktonic versus surface associated bacteria. Its an important distinction. But please recognize that water is constantly circulating past the surfaces in our tanks -- the biofilm microbes show up in the water column too. Lots of evidence in hand now to show this.
With that said, our first round did show that for a more sensitive analysis of biofilm microbes, we should include a direct sample of the biofilm. This contains important ammonia-oxidizing and nitrate-oxidizing microbes. So current sampling kits include a biofilm sample too.
I'm gonna stop there for now, but I'll come back and answer questions. There is a link on the main page of the company website that describes a basic overview of the microbes that live in reef tanks. Soon I'll be adding my analysis of differences between tanks, and my cycling experiment studying the succession of microbes in new aquariums started various ways.
We have a lot to learn - but the way we learn is by collecting data. Thats what my service is for.
-Eli
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
Your welcome. We all need to keep a eye on this.
lexinverts
Well-Known Member
Not true. There is also a sample swabbed from the output pipe of sampled tanks. He added this for the latest sampling method.
It should also be noted that in re-circulating saltwater systems, pretty much all bacteria can be sampled from the water column, not just planktonic bacteria.
He is confirming this with swab tests.
EDIT: I see Eli just posted something similar as I was typing.
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lexinverts
Well-Known Member
@TheHarold, I had them test all 4 of my systems. The one system that I was having trouble with dino, was, by far, the system that had the lowest microbial diversity.
FYI, Eli has some data that he collected experimentally that he will be sharing soon.
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@AquaBiomics
This was a fantastic reply. Your 20 years in academy are well reflected. Godspeed in your efforts. As others noted, this is a beginning. Thanks for getting this started.
"Knowledge is power."
Not sure who said this, but more power to you, Eli!
Respectfully,
Kris
Now THAT is interesting, and supported by anecdotes about sterile tanks/low nutrients leading to dinoflagellate outbreaks.
I don’t want to be misinterpreted; I think this testing is awesome and provides a lot of data. I just hope such cultures are not immediately commercialized and sold based on the test results. For all we know, said tank with dinos could have a full microbial recovery if fed more— and just pouring in the absent microbes would do nothing, as it is not the “cause” of the issue. Just correlational.
lexinverts
Well-Known Member
I think Eil made clear in his post that he is not into selling snake oil products.
He has some very interesting results from cycling experiments, which show that starting a tank with the right microbiome can potentially help you skip the "ugly" phase.
Another possibility is the detection of coral and fish pathogens from a simple water sample. Flatworms, ich, velvet, etc... all you need to do is use the right primers to amplify environmental DNA from the water column of your tank.
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