This thread helps new reefs run without fallow or qt pls post

Montiman

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I have an in between view of QT. I have been reefing for about 10 years and have never had a major disease outbreak. I believe I have had at least 7 tanks in that time plus the many tanks I set up and maintained while working at an LFS for 5 years.

The thing with QT is that it does work kinda. The average person is not a research scientist. I have toured a couple public aquariums and they report that after a 60 day medicated QT on all fish with full time staff watching the fish in a separate room where the staff washes their hands and steps through a foot bath when entering and leaving the room they have still gotten ich in their main system. I just don't think eliminating disease is a realistic goal for the average person.

All that being said Ich is not the worst disease in the world, velvet, brook, uronema, worm infections, and parasitic crustaceans are all worse than Ich, but they are much much easier to deal with in QT. I have personally seen all of these infections while working at the LFS and all of them can be dealt with easily with Copper, Formalin, and Prazi. I do believe that buying fish that have been proactively treated to eliminate the most deadly fish diseases is a good idea, but it is no guarantee that your tank will not get disease. Eliminating disease is just wishful thinking.

Given that an aquarium will have some disease it is best to feed fish a balanced healthy diet, employ UV if possible and don't stress if something starts scratching. Leave it alone, don't remove all of the fish and go fallow, simply maintain good reef keeping practices.

Don't see the presence of Ich or uronema as a death sentence. Aquabiomics reports uronema is in 9% of tanks tested but only an issue in less than half of them. I bet that this is an overestimate of how problematic uronema is as often people only pay for an expensive test when something is going wrong. I bet 85% off tanks with Ich have a non problematic infection. If you purchase good healthy fish that have had a basic prophylactic treatment this is often all that is needed to have success.
 

zalick

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...

Pauls thread in the general forum is 131 pages of no quarantine no fallow posts, but no new threads as a real test, we can get that here.
.....
There are quite literally thousands and thousands of posts on R2R, RC, NR etc. where people have tanks running with live rock, otherwise healthy, do not QT and have a complete wipe of all fish from adding a diseased fish one time....
 
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brandon429

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UV would be tops on my list if I had a tank so large accessing the complete water volume was unreasonable, I'd never be without. they help across the spectrum of reef challenges and harm so little. seems like UV, oxydator, live rock inclusion, perhaps ATS reverse lit scrubber for oxygen something above norm, and strong feed are top contenders for best non-qt practices so far.

a chemical free, isolation-free boosting of natural resources option, trying to hone down. focuses on the best of each category, something above the norm in every way. not just frozen hikari food everyone can buy at petsmart.

creative

Paul uses clams that he himself consumes soon after sharing w the reef, roasted style with tartar I hear.
 
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Jekyl

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There are quite literally thousands and thousands of posts on R2R, RC, NR etc. where people have tanks running with live rock, otherwise healthy, do not QT and have a complete wipe of all fish from adding a diseased fish one time....
At the same time there are posts that are the exact opposite outcome. That's what we're trying to figure out.
 

Jekyl

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@Lasse care to chime in on our little topic here? Always been impressed by your knowledge on these subjects.
 

zalick

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At the same time there are posts that are the exact opposite outcome. That's what we're trying to figure out.
Of course. My point to Brandon was in response to his comment "no new threads as a real test". These threads do exist, just not linked under one heading. Paul B's tank is a unicorn and I can safely say that nobody can run a tank like his unless they live in the same area, have the same bacterial colony collected in the 1960/70s and have access to collecting the same mud! :)
 

Jekyl

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Of course. My point to Brandon was in response to his comment "no new threads as a real test". These threads do exist, just not linked under one heading. Paul B's tank is a unicorn and I can safely say that nobody can run a tank like his unless they live in the same area, have the same bacterial colony collected in the 1960/70s and have access to collecting the same mud! :)
My setup is the same as Paul more or less and has been running for 2yrs now
 

zalick

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My setup is the same as Paul more or less and has been running for 2yrs now
But its not. I doubt you run a reverse undergravel filter and frequently collect mud and pods from NY waters.

If by "same more or less" you mean you don't QT, then sure, my current setup is the same as Paul's "more or less" and has been running for 10 years disease free without quarantines or fallow periods. *I'm in no way advocating no QT by saying I haven't QT ever.

@Thaxxx is right that there are simply too many variables to draw conclusions in the no QT setups to determine what works and what doesn't.
 

Jekyl

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I do run a RUGF system and while I can't visit the ocean the way he does I've gone out of my way to introduce as much diversity as I can from my area. I messaged back and forth with him during my setup to try and get it as close to his setup as possible. Just no DiY turf scrubber
 
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hds4216

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At the same time there are posts that are the exact opposite outcome. That's what we're trying to figure out.
I would posit that it's basically just luck. Either a fish gets introduced that is capable of wiping out the tank with a disease it's carrying (like velvet), or it doesn't. Diseased fish or not, gamble well.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Attached is a Venn diagram that I have in my forthcoming disease book. It shows the relationships between the pathogen host and the environment. It is probably pretty basic, but very important in understanding disease in aquariums.

Jay
 

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mickeysreef <*))))<

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Very interesting and something I haven't thought of until this was posted.
Knock on wood I have never had to deal with disease or lost a fish in my system due to disease.
Luck? Maybe but I try to pick them unblemished, healthy and active when I get them.
Could possibly have something to do with the 300lbs of live rock I have in my 140 gallon total system. 200lbs of that rock was harvested from area I was told that had 18-25 years growth on it.
I have a powder brown that I feel I acquired with brain damage. Its nuts and bounces off rocks sometimes and has ended up with abrasions and cuts from time to time. As much as the cuts stressed me out they heal up pretty quickly and both tangs remain super healthy and disease free.
likely blind or has tumor. can also be lympho virus in brain
 

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likely blind or has tumor. can also be lympho virus in brain
Yeah I dont think so he follows me around frag table peeking at me from under the racks with both eyes.
He just gets really excited about eating and attention. He eats frozen cubes from chopsticks until they are gone. Probably fattest fish I have besides porcupine puffer. Just super social and personality of his own.
 

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I'm curious why it has to be sick or blind or tumor?
@Paul B has a 50 year old tank with fish he doesn't even know he had in it should check out his thread sometime. Totally old school and unorthodox.
Could it be possible that over time or given the right biodiversity that your tank just matures and is able to fight off sicknesses in fish?
I'm also super curious how many of these diseases really got out of hand with the dry rock approach to building reef tanks.
 

mickeysreef <*))))<

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Could it be possible that over time or given the right biodiversity that your tank just matures and is able to fight off sicknesses in fish?
a lot of people believe this is the case.

As far as running a tank without qt or fallow, i recommend

1. largest uv sterilizer you can afford. have a lamp back up and dont forget to change after 6 months
2 power generator back up
3. live rock
4. stick with hardy fish for the first 5 years - no sensitive or expert care types
5. dose bacteria daily
6. lots of biodiversity - mud, NSW etc
7. keep your water in check
8. live foods

probably a bunch more. i got a culture of white worms from paul but i qt. nothing absolutely nothing will go in my tank until it is qt or fallow. maybe 5 years from now i will add something and see if the daily bacteria and live worms worked,
 

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a lot of people believe this is the case.

As far as running a tank without qt or fallow, i recommend

1. largest uv sterilizer you can afford. have a lamp back up and dont forget to change after 6 months
2 power generator back up
3. live rock
4. stick with hardy fish for the first 5 years - no sensitive or expert care types
5. dose bacteria daily
6. lots of biodiversity - mud, NSW etc
7. keep your water in check
8. live foods

probably a bunch more. i got a culture of white worms from paul but i qt. nothing absolutely nothing will go in my tank until it is qt or fallow. maybe 5 years from now i will add something and see if the daily bacteria and live worms worked,
For sure. By all means I hope anyone runs across this thread doesn't think I advocate no qt. I believe its probably absolutely necessary in alot of instances for alot of different reasons.

I dont think @brandon429 was imposing that in any way either. Just alot of layers to peel back on the onion and every reefer should as all our reefs are different and we all should find out what works best for our particular reef.
There's no way I'd knowingly introduce a sick fish to my system.
It is possible ive just been lucky but do believe my live rock lends a huge hand to things.
 
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brandon429

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This experiment has failed see the main link.


Im 1000% sure that fallow and qt are the best the hobby has to offer.
 

Tamberav

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I will bite. I havn't QT or fallowed but have pulled fish into a QT to treat for an illnesses.

I do think its a bit silly that the standard is to assume that people have enough room in the house for a dedicated QT setup, the patience to do fallow periods and the money to buy additional testing equipment, pumps, heaters ect. Its largely not practical for most people and impossible for anyone living in smaller apartments.

I know the risk I put my tank at by now prophylactically treating and would love to QT my fish once I get a tank sized where it would make sense to reduce the probability of a large die off event. I have three fish in my Evo which costed me around $100 total. A QT setup, hanna checker, additional salt, filters and heaters is easily $250 and requires that I have the space for an additional tank and the time to do the additional maintenance and checks.

If you have the space and funds to ensure your $10K worth of fish don't get velvet and die all at once, please do so. For now I will be giving them tons of fresh and frozen foods, closely observing for signs of stress and enjoying the additional free time.

I also think that copper resistant ich/velvet is only a matter of time but obviously nothing to back that up.

Only thing I want to point out is The misconception that a QT tank has to be expensive.

Airline is 4 dollars
Air pump is 10 dollars
A bucket is 3 dollars or a larger plastic tote is 10-15 dollars.
Instant ocean is 13 dollars for 50 gallons.

A heater will be the biggest expense but I don’t always use those. I know of one person who just uses two vases and a airline/pump for TTM.

It does however take time and energy and QT can be straight up draining.
 
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