Thought this was diatoms till I got a closer look

FLReef32043

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Have had a brush with diatoms on the sand bed but this evening I noticed a very dark reddish spot on the sand. Then several of them. Got a sample then blew them off and they went away like diatoms. But when I put it under a scope this was NOT what I was expecting. The main "grain" seems to be permeable withe small ciliates (?) around and through it. I did note a few diatoms at about 1:18 (although they do appear 'attached' and very still). Nematode at 1:37. There is also an elongated pale something (in the 2 min time frame) that I thought may be algae but not sure. Magnifications click through from 40 to 100 and 200 as the highest value.

Anyone have any idea what I'm looking at. This isn't sand. I've seen sand and it is solid and you cannot see "through" it.

 

andrewey

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At first blush, it looks like dinoflagellates, however it's a bit too difficult to tell when they're that clustered together. Are you able to dilute the sample (similar sample, just shake it up) and shoot another video? That way I can confirm if they are dinos and see if they have enough distinguish characteristics to try and make an ID.

You are right about the diatoms and the nematode was cool :)
 
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FLReef32043

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Here ya go - a bit longer.



I had them in a specimen cup. Blue the sand around and mixed it up. Sucked up a couple of the darker spots to get this. Same as before but interestingly (around 2:20 and a bit) there is something that I don't think is a nematode. Not sure what that is although it appears similar to some freshwater worms albeit with a very long "nose." I got sidetracked with that :)

Anyway they do seem a little less dense but are not moving at all that i can see. For some reason I had the idea that they would be moving like diatoms. Sorry for some of the shaking I was trying for some fine tuning and the scope isn't the heaviest.

I was also expecting dinos to be more of a mat but these were pretty much dusty and easily blown into the water column.

I can go to a 20x eyepiece and get up to 400x if that will help any.
 

TriggerFinger

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I have no idea what any of that is (maybe the tiny moving critters were pods?) but the videos are fascinating.
 

andrewey

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One last request :) Are you able to take a shot similar to 4:26 onward (no moving, hopefully step away from the scope when it's set up to reduce vibration)? A 20x might help. When viewing the larger mats of the stuff, it's a bit too hard to distinguish their individual morphology/movements. The cluster you found in 4:26 is dilute enough that if it's a bit more stable, I might be able to discern enough morphology. Getting a still, close-up look at an isolated few of those round guys would also be ideal.

At this point I have some guesses, but they're still just guesses. Procentrum would be the most likely dino species based on their lack of motion, however coolia are generally spherical like what you're seeing, but they also tend to be really mobile. Large-cell Amphidinium have a distinct wedge-like "beak" cutout and there's even a few in your video that have that kind of appearance (there's one towards the very bottom center of the screen around that 4:26 mark), so that's yet another possibility, but still you would expect to see some movement. There are also algaes and diatoms that have the same morphology, so a closer or better video might help to illuminate the differences and bring us closer to a positive ID.
 
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FLReef32043

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Starts at 400x and steps down to 200 then to 80 and some searching for other mats with some magnification changes.
 

andrewey

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Thanks, that's very helpful--can definitely confirm these are dinos, but can't say 100% about the species. My most likely guess would be a kind of procentrum (your specimen looks a like the top right cell in this video, tentatively ID'd as procentrum). I can say these aren't prorocentrum lima, the more common procentrum species found in reef aquarium, however only a handful of dino species are commonly described in reef aquaria, although dozens, if not hundreds have been cataloged. There are also some very coolia-like cells but again you'd expect to see a lot more movement with coolia.

Oddly enough I've been dealing with a very similar issue in one of my own tanks recently (rafts of generally motionless, spherical dinos, some rotating slowly in place), and while a confident ID still eludes me I've had luck keeping the problem at bay so far with the traditional dino-fighting arsenal. Maybe someone else wants to take a crack at it and will be able to provide more information to help with an absolute ID. In the meantime, good work on the microscopy and good luck!
 
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FLReef32043

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Thanks on both counts. Guess I better start delving into the how to treat dino threads.
 

taricha

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@andrewey has done a great job here. Coaching on getting great scope shots is harder than ID'ing pics :)
I lean amphidinium, for a few reasons.
I've seen nearly motionless almost totally round barely spinning amphidinium posted before. And it's not necessarily that we are bad at ID, amphidinium has no armored plates which is what is often used to describe species. So there are a lot of amphidinium that are undescribed species, or the species description is a mess without DNA. Without the armor (theca) shape can be pretty fluid. I've had some change shape when I kept them in a beaker vs when they were in my tank. Finally, if it were an armored type like prorocentrum, you would expect to image the occasional shell either in place, or cast off during a cell division.
 

andrewey

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@taricha , I was torn between procentrum vs. amphidinium for the longest time. I obviously leaned too heavily on shape and the lack of a prominent "beak", so thanks for the explanation about the fluidity of the morphology! Thanks!
 

taricha

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I was torn between procentrum vs. amphidinium for the longest time.
I'll give you another one just for a bonus. It's not in the guide because I've only seen two people post pics of it. I almost called the one in this thread gambierdiscus like rev's dinos, but I think I can detect a slight amphidinium-like beak and no discernable armor at magnification that ought to show it.
But similarities: round, nearly motionless, barely spinning, forms dense thick film etc.
 

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I am confused. I often observe a brown algae on the glass that looks very similar to most of the organisms shown here. Are all the brown organisms dinoflagellates, or just the moving ones?

200519_o0338 brown algae 800px.jpg

Still image.

Here is a movie on youtube. If viewed on a full screen the dinos are visible. Most of the brown dots are algae. Golden algae maybe?
 

taricha

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Oh, come on, @Wampatom Don't tease us with these low power shots. Give us the good stuff!
Certainly neither of those are problem dinos. The smaller zoomier guys are little flagellates or ciliates of some kind.
The motionless guys I really want to see higher power shot of.
 
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FLReef32043

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@taricha and anyone else.

I've been reading off/on since i got off work around 4 and I am overwhelmed. is there a clear concise thread or web page that provides a plan for removal of amphidinium dinos?

I get that these are sand dwellers so UV is not high on the list. Reduce (or increase) nutrients (a week ago my nitrates were 100 (consistent since 24 Apr) and Phosphates were .025 (consistent since 24 Apr) using an API test kit (I have Hanna checkers ordered as I'm not sure I trust API to make big decisions with).

I've seen recommendation to dose silicates with thegoal of the diatoms out competing the dinos.

Lots of references to dinos in general with chemicals and other suggestions. I on't have the attention span to read through the 200 some pages of the dino treatment thread and everyone seems to have their opinions, results and failures.

Anything concise?
 

taricha

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@taricha and anyone else.

I've been reading off/on since i got off work around 4 and I am overwhelmed. is there a clear concise thread or web page that provides a plan for removal of amphidinium dinos?

The first post of this thread pretty much lays out the game plan for things people are trying.
Amphidinium Treatment methods.

Since multi-species outbreaks happen so often, and UV may have other indirect benefits, it's fine to run UV even for the large cell amphidinium dinos that don't go into the water.
The only other real technique that people are playing around with (that I haven't added to the first post) is that a few people are trying elevating temp to 82.5-83F. About half say it has some positive effect, though it's unclear why or for which species. The rest say it does nothing or a few say dinos get worse.
Other than that it's different ways of getting as many dino cells out, replacing them with other harmless organisms, And moving nutrients (especially PO4) away from starvation.
 

Wampatom

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I responded to FLReef32043 because his brown mass looked very similar to scrapings from my aquarium. Clearly he has some dinoflagellates but I was unsure about the bulk of them. Are the dinos a problem if there are only a few of them?

200519_o0367 brown scrape 75 800px.jpg

Here is a scraping from my tank. There is much more disorder than when I let them grow on a glass slide left in the aquarium.

200519_o0350 sci 800px.jpg

Here is a view of the same brown objects at a higher view. These are part of the algae film that appears on my glass. I have assumed they are harmless, maybe chrysophyte algae. They do not move. Is this correct Taricha?

200516_o0269 small dino.jpg

Here is a photo of what I believe are small dinos associated with he brown algae. They seem to fit Taricha’s
description as small amphidinium. They move fast and have a flagellate.

Taricha. A Guide to Dinoflagellate Identification in Reef Aquaria:

I have assumed this combination is harmless in my aquarium.

FLReef32043 seems to have a different dino but I can’t determine if most of the mass is a chrysophyte algae or more dinos. It seems each would require a different treatment.
 
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FLReef32043

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@taricha and anyone else. This evening dino video series is from my gyre and gyre power cord. About 18-20 inches above the sand bed (give or take a couple).





[all done at 80, 200, 400x]

I tried to break up the mats to see if I could get movement. I did with limited success. The first was a pretty solid mat and the pippette would not break the mat up significantly but there were still some outliers who were moving around.

The second video I captured into a specimen cup and swirled it pretty well but it still remained clumped. These look "peanut"-ey and some look like donuts with the center hole included (small cell Amphidinium? while Taricha's ident guide shows them elongated there are a couple in the upper left that have what appears to be an obvious 'hole').

I also noticed that the "brown" in my tank has increased from just yesterday. I was blowing "brown" off my power heads, the gyre and off my rocks to some extent.

[edited to add] did a water test of N03 (10) and PO4 (looks to be 0 and .25 - lower than I have seen previously but too hard to tell where it is exactly I err high).

Here is my big question of the night. I am about a week out from adding my fish out of Quarantine to the tank. I have read and seen some videos that talk about toxins and dying fish. From Taricha's identification document Large Amphinidinium has non to mild toxin while Small Cell Amphindinium has low to medium - are my fish in any danger of bad consequences from this stuff?

I'm also very confused why these all seem to be inert and non-mobile. Is it because they are in the mat?
 
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