Time to start over? Ask BRSTV, thought I'd ask my friends here, as well.

[Retro Reefer]

Do yourself a favor and put some real live rock in there, any hitchhikers can be managed

 

[CNDReef]

Sorry if this has been said but Is your ph always that low? That’s chronically low at 7.4 - 7.6.

 

[Mark]

That, to me, suggests something’s missing. I can go many months without doing a WC before I notice anything amiss. You’ve done triton tests, and use two part, but perhaps there’s something that those don’t detect or don’t add. I’m loath to advice anybody to spend $1K on kit, and maybe you’re right that a CaRx wouldn’t help, but I really don’t see anything amiss otherwise .

I agree. If soft corals start to decline without a water change, then something bad is leaching or building up. Another reason to ditch those marine pure blocks as well.

 

[MERKEY]

Two points to ponder

1. Reduce your lighting 30% -40% off current and continue trying, see if they still bleach as fast or slower. That reduction won’t hurt current doing well corals. You need to know how bleaching rates compare vs 30-40% lower for a while as a new evaluation.


2. Don’t blend methods from tank tuners. Pick one method here, run it solely for two months, then move on. Nobody ever does this, they pick what they think is best from the palette but give the wheel over instead for two months as a remote pilot excluding anyone’s offer, don’t blend. Pick your mechanic drop car off don’t hover remotely piloted of course but figuratively speaking. That’s the best way to regenerate the tank for reef building corals/hermatypics are your only challenge. Better than an invasion or dinos challenge. Reef looks nice in pics

I was wondering when you were going to chime in. After taking quit some time and reading through your sand rinsing tech thread and its connected posts which I am intrigued with and I knew you would have some input

Sounds like you have a lot of info from a lot of knowledgable members with different suggestions which all sound good. As Brandon stated just try to stick to a method and drive it home.

I cant imagine how frustrated you are, and I hope it gets better soon!

 

[Flippers4pups]

@Greybeard, come by the reef2reef booth and talk to us. Myself, @Crabs McJones and others have experienced die off recently. Be a good round table discussion to share each others ideas and observations.

 

[tripdad]

I started my last two tanks with mined rock, never again. My reset involved adding 25% real live rock from a trusted source. Ask your friends for a couple of pieces from their sumps if they have any. If not place a new sponge filter in their sump for a month then move it to your tank to help seed it. I really think, and I'm old too, that there was more to using live rock than we knew. I firmly believe we need that bio matrix it supplied us with for easy to keep reefs. One's without dino's, cyano, etc.. I think it boils down to having the good to outcompete the bad. You can add multiple bacteria in a bottle instead, just use varied brands. Bubbaque has had good success that way with dry rock. Remember, this is all just an opinion from an old guy.

 

[NanoDJS]

it says your running AB+ but i see a t5 hood in pic ?..... and 500-250 PAR ....... I would bet the farm your cooking coral, UV overexposed I dont run my uv bulbs above 40% on AI lights they are powerful. If you has an sps dom tank with big colonies i could see them acclimating to it but for mixed reef I have best results with around 350 Max Par and gets to about 100 for the bottom 4" of the tank I run 48x24x16(80gal) these shallow tanks are tricky to light , I switched my DT lights and dang have never been as happy since MH, also take into account all the lights are made for full size tanks not half height like ours , they penetrate too well.

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

If you do pick up a few live rocks, I would try to create some arches and overhangs. I generally introduce new corals in partially shaded areas on the bottom. LPS especially do well in these areas. Your fish will like it if nothing else.

 

[Greybeard]

@Greybeard, come by the reef2reef booth and talk to us. Myself, @Crabs McJones and others have experienced die off recently. Be a good round table discussion to share each others ideas and observations.

See you there!

 

[Greybeard]

it says your running AB+ but i see a t5 hood in pic ?..... and 500-250 PAR ....... I would bet the farm your cooking coral, UV overexposed I dont run my uv bulbs above 40% on AI lights they are powerful. If you has an sps dom tank with big colonies i could see them acclimating to it but for mixed reef I have best results with around 350 Max Par and gets to about 100 for the bottom 4" of the tank I run 48x24x16(80gal) these shallow tanks are tricky to light , I switched my DT lights and dang have never been as happy since MH, also take into account all the lights are made for full size tanks not half height like ours , they penetrate too well.

No T5's... I replaced them with Kessel AP700's a year ago, for exactly the reasons you are talking about. Running at 40%, AB+ color. Kessel's can put out a ton of light, but these are turned pretty far down... leathers, zoas, etc, even within a few inches of the surface, don't seem to mind.

 

[Greybeard]

There have been several 'leaching' comments, metals, etc... that's kinda where my head is, that _something_ in the system is toxic. I've gone through it with a fine toothed comb, I can't find anything, but that doesn't mean it's not there. If that's it, it's something that Triton doesn't test.

If I wipe it out and start over, it'll be with different rock (reel reef rock, TBS... not sure, but different), and I'll replace the entire sump, and everything in it, at the same time. Probably clean and reuse my skimmer, but heater, pump, etc, will all get swapped out. Likely go bare bottom, follow BRS/WWC Hybrid path, see how that works out.

Someone asked about my salt. I started this system with red sea blue bucket. Wasn't having much luck, switched to Reef Crystals a year ago.

 

[WVNed]

No T5's... I replaced them with Kessel AP700's a year ago, for exactly the reasons you are talking about. Running at 40%, AB+ color. Kessel's can put out a ton of light, but these are turned pretty far down... leathers, zoas, etc, even within a few inches of the surface, don't seem to mind.

Would that not mean you are not running the light bright enough for the stuff that isnt doing well. I run MH and zoas and leathers have to go on the bottom. I also run all my lights 10 hours a day and the t-5s are on 2 hours longer.

I dont believe you have some toxic substance that is that specific to certain things in your tank. I might believe you have a deficiency of something those animals need but I doubt that too.

 

[ADAM]

@Greybeard before Napalming the tank, if leaching or contaminants passing thru RODI are part of the issue and they are being consumed by the cheato before the levels are detected I think pulling the cheato and doing a water change or two may help show this. If you pull the cheato and other chemical filters (carbon, GFO, etc) out of the water column and sent another ICP test in 1-2 weeks after removing these it should show on the results then since nothing is really there to consume them.

 

[artieg1]

Every situation is different, of course. But I could not keep LPS or simple SPS 18 months ago, and now my LPS has exploded, and doing simple SPS, nothing fancy. The changes I made are as follows:

(1) 2-part dosing to keep ALK at 8.5
(2) Changed lighting (I went to three AI Hydra 52s)
(3) Removed marine pure block (!)
(4) Removed all angels, even "reef safe", they were totally nipping and stressing my inverts and corals when I was not watching
(5) I did not glue any piece down until it had spent 6 months happy in a location, did lots of moving (it is amazing how an Elegance Coral that hated one location thrives in a similar location on the other end of the tank).
(6) Added more flow to DT with a maxspect gyre (in addition to MP40).

For the record, I used all mined rock. I really really don't think rock source is the issue. That may be the difference in a "good" versus "great" SPS tank, but that cannot be the deciding factor in a "tank of death to all LPS and SPS".

 

[MnFish1]

I had many issues as well, I have started a few tanks with Marco Rock. Until I added a rather large diversity of bacteria's, "gunk" from likes of GARF, sponges, abundant amount of pods, LIFE and various creatures, the Ecosystem didn't function healthy.

I am currently happy since upping the system with various life forms and bacteria's, that I can maintain it with simple macros now. I still dump random bottle bacteria or "ocean dirt" every 6 months or so. Hasn't hert yet.

Stay voltage was a good question, but wouldn't fish be affected?

If had the opposite experience. I started with Dry rock. I dont purposely add 'gunk or ocean dirt' becasue I dont have access to it. That said - I tended when starting to add MORE coral than less - which quickly increased the biodiversity of the tank. IMHO (and its heresy I know) - some of the delay/problems with tanks etc - relate to this extremely slow pace. Like putting 1 small frag in 150 gallon tank. That just to me gives lots of surface area for algae etc to take hold. Now - I also have a fair bit of experience - and keep my parameters very stable - so that also plays a role....

Its interesting what I dont understand is how some many people are successful keeping their tanks with extremely low nutrients - and adding no extra stuff - and others who do well putting a bunch of stuff in - both sides swear by their methods - but they are polar opposites. I have a feeling it relates to the type of coral being kept in each

 

[MnFish1]

@Greybeard, come by the reef2reef booth and talk to us. Myself, @Crabs McJones and others have experienced die off recently. Be a good round table discussion to share each others ideas and observations.

Me too. Though I have a partial reason - some corals are doing great - 3 SPS - just 'died'. The only thing different is that I stopped using carbon(granulated) over the last couple months.

 

[Urtie]

Weird that even your softies suffer so quickly if you stop water changes, despite having chaeto for nutrient export. Doesn't that indicate that something nasty is building up in the tank, either from equipment or toxins from corals?

The water changes might be masking what the problem is on the Triton tests. Maybe testing right before and then right after a big water change would give a hint? Don't know if toxins would show up on the tests though.

I'm completely new to the hobby, so don't take me seriously.

 

[MnFish1]

I can’t keep SPS or LPS alive. None. Even plain old Monti cap just fades away. Clams, same thing, I’ve killed 5 now. Softies, polyps, leathers, zoanthinds, palythoa… they’re fine, but that’s all I can keep. Beautiful 5” ORA Squamosa, dying. 6” bubble coral, dying. 5” Elegance, died a few weeks ago. Buddy of mine keeps giving me purple and orange Montipora Cap frags, growing like a weed in his reef, I keep killing them. Acropora, stylophora, monti digi, heck, I can’t grow pest corals like Pocillipora. Just fade away.

I’ve done Triton tests, nothing out of the ordinary, Lithium a bit low (80ppm). Seneye shows par levels of 550 to 250, depending on depth and placement. Nitrates <25 (Red Sea) Phosphates ~0.1 (Hanna ULR) Ammonia 0 Calcium 420 (Nyos) Alk 7.5 DKH (Hanna) Phosphate 1320 (Nyos) Dosing 25ML / day BRS 2Part on Neptune DOS. Doing 40 gallon bi-weekly water changes with 0 TDS RO/DI and Reef Crystals, mixed to 1.026 (Refractometer). pH ranges 7.4 – 7.6 (Neptune probe) Temp 77.7 to 78.4. I’ve thrown out test kits, recalibrated probes, tested refractometer against known samples, etc… several times now.

I Thought of a couple other things:

1. How long does it take the coral to 'fade away'. Is it weeks - is it top to bottom or bottom to top - or does it just die suddenly within a short period of time - The reason I ask - Is that I have on 4 different occasions - bought blue stylos that literally RTN/STN over 2 weeks after being added to a tank - that all other corals are thriving in. It makes no sense at all. I've matched pH PAR and other parameters yet - they will not grow. I can only ascribe it to a toxin of some sort being released by something in the tank.
2. Can you post the results of your ICP test - and have you sent a second one. I would perhaps send a test of your tank water and your makeup water.
3. Common things being common - if the pH of the tank your taking your coral from is routinely 8.2 lets say - and you're dropping them in water with a pH of 7.4 - you're may have problems. I would concentrate on getting your pH up as well - more fresh air in the room, or into the skimmer, etc.

 

[tony'stank]

I have a very similar reef history to you. I started reefing in the 1980s. Four years ago I started a RSR450 with dry rock ( previously live rock from my system that was bleached and soaked but not cured). It took two years for my tank to settle down and mature enough to keep most LPS, and some montiporas and chalices. I also got rid of my Marinepure blocks and saw an immediate improvement on my softies ( my aluminum was also good on Triton testing).Good luck and hang in there

 

[madweazl]

Both of my tanks were started with dry rock (BRS reef saver in the 75g and pukani in the 150g that I got from somebody else) but, I used a single piece of fiji live rock (roughly 5lbs) in the 75g and when I started the 150g (roughly four months ago now I think), I snatched a piece of rock out of the 75g (approx 7-10lb piece). Until a week ago, the 150g had four Kessil A360WEs on it and coralline is already growing like crazy. With the exception of the single piece of live rock from the 75g, every item in that tank is new. The rock did get a muriatic and bleach bath; phosphates were high for the first three months or so (.6+ on the ULR as that is where it maxes). I ran GFO for approx five days and it dropped down to .01. Took it offline for a week and it climbed to .04 so I turned it on for a couple of days and it dropped back down to .003 where it has seems to have leveled off. My point, even with the acid and bleach baths, there was still residual phosphates but it didn't take too much work to get it out. Outside of the potential for phosphates (didnt have any with the 75g reef saver rock), I dont think there are any issues with the dry except the lack of bio-diversity. The piece of fiji had some aiptasia but the tank was new so I was able to nuke those with boiling water in a turkey injector right off the bat (only thing I've ever used successfully to kill aiptasia in 20+ years in the hobby). Oh yea, I started both tanks with tap water but all subsequent additions were from the RO/DI (hey, I'm too impatient to wait on a 75gpd unit to fill the tanks).

As for your lighting; how high is it mounted? 250-500 PAR sounds extremely generous for a Kessil array (especially running that blue) unless it is mounted three to four inches over the tank. If it's at the same elevation as the T5s were, the chances of your PAR being that high are slim to none. For the sake of comparison, here are the measurements of my 6xT5 plus 4xA360s (one X and three WEs) on our 150g (mounted roughly 8" above the water). Your tank is considerably shallower so that would account for a significant difference. For what it's worth, I typically run my Kessils in the 50-60% color range as the PAR output is highest (measured anyways) in this range. This provides more of a 12k appearance in the tank so if you like heavy blues, you probably wont care for that look but it certainly grows corals; the T5s are 2x Blue+, Aquablue Special, and Purple+ (did I mention I dont like the blue look LOL).

1) Have you tried one of the SPS in the 250 PAR range and the same coral (perhaps you could get two of the same frags from a buddy) to see if they react the same? This could help isolate issues with lighting (i.e. too much PAR though I'm extremely skeptical that is a problem).

2) When they die off, are the slowly losing color (bleaching that could be from too much or too little light) or do they STN or RTN (tissue dying off)?

I use carbon 24/7 in our tanks (Two Little Fishies Hydrocarbon 2 at 1/4 cup per 25 gallons as recommended on the packaging), mainly because of water clarity but partially because of it's ability to absorb various toxins. We did have a green toadstool (sarcophyton elegance) in the tank and didn't have issues but I removed it to make space for acroporas after a few months. The carbon hasn't cause any problems with the corals or fish.

1) Running carbon may or may not help with any toxin issue you may be having but it wont hurt anything to try if you use the same stuff as dosed above (been on the 75g over three years now).

2) I change 20 gallons of water on the 75g every week. You did however mention that your alkalinity is 7.5 dKh and Reef Crystals typically mixes up well north of 10dKh.

3) Because your alkalinity is low compared to the salt mix, have you double and triple checked your salinity? For a tank that doesn't have high consumers of alkalinity, the current measurement is considerably lower than what I'd suspect for a tank using that salt unless you're using something like muriatic acid to bring it down before the water change (I did the same with Instant Ocean for the past three years).

4) If you are using muriatic acid to lower the alkalinity of the new water, are you giving it time to blow off the excess CO2 before doing the water change (pH plummets in the water if not).