Time to start over? Ask BRSTV, thought I'd ask my friends here, as well.

Greybeard

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Ok, hear goes. Buckle in, it’s a long one.

I started my 1st marine aquarium circa 1982. I’ve been reefing since 1992, successful mixed reef of the day. In and out of the hobby over the decades, but always keeping up with current trends. Current ReefSquad member… I’d consider myself a long term, successful reefer. Heck, I was successfully breeding and raising Erectus and Kuda seahorses in the mid 90’s. Not a newby.

Started a 140g system 3 years ago. Never in my life have I experienced a system as problematic as this one. Current specs: 60x30x18” tank. 2x Kessel AP700 lights. 55g sump, ½ full of healthy Chaetomorpha under a Zetlight E200s. Vertex 180i skimmer. 8x flow through sump. 4x 1900GPH Rossmont Mover wave pumps on waver... 80lbs of Marco Rock, 3 years old, 2x Marinepure Bricks. BRS 2 stage reactor, currently idle.

I can’t keep SPS or LPS alive. None. Even plain old Monti cap just fades away. Clams, same thing, I’ve killed 5 now. Softies, polyps, leathers, zoanthinds, palythoa… they’re fine, but that’s all I can keep. Beautiful 5” ORA Squamosa, dying. 6” bubble coral, dying. 5” Elegance, died a few weeks ago. Buddy of mine keeps giving me purple and orange Montipora Cap frags, growing like a weed in his reef, I keep killing them. Acropora, stylophora, monti digi, heck, I can’t grow pest corals like Pocillipora. Just fade away.

I’ve done Triton tests, nothing out of the ordinary, Lithium a bit low (80ppm). Seneye shows par levels of 550 to 250, depending on depth and placement. Nitrates <25 (Red Sea) Phosphates ~0.1 (Hanna ULR) Ammonia 0 Calcium 420 (Nyos) Alk 7.5 DKH (Hanna) Phosphate 1320 (Nyos) Dosing 25ML / day BRS 2Part on Neptune DOS. Doing 40 gallon bi-weekly water changes with 0 TDS RO/DI and Reef Crystals, mixed to 1.026 (Refractometer). pH ranges 7.4 – 7.6 (Neptune probe) Temp 77.7 to 78.4. I’ve thrown out test kits, recalibrated probes, tested refractometer against known samples, etc… several times now.

Here’s the question: Empty the system, bleach the tank, buy new rock, and start over… or not.

I’m not a quitter. This tank WILL BE successful… no matter what it takes. If successful means a tank full of leathers and zoanthids, honestly, I’m willing to live with that, but there is SOMETHING WRONG… and I sure as heck wish I could figure it out.

Oh… I’ll be at Reef-a-paloosa this weekend… see a guy looks like a mean version of Santa Claus… that’ll be me. Love to talk to you about it in person.

Oh… Reel Reef Rock has a booth… bet they’d sell me some fresh rock
FTS_040118.jpg
 
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Schweezy

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Yeah. So I’m a huge proponent of live rock from KP or TB Saltwater or any other way you can obtain it. I just haven’t had the same success with dry rock as I’ve had with live rock. My current system is a mix but only after I ran into all sorts of issues with Pukani dry rock.
 

Dine

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Ok, hear goes. Buckle in, it’s a long one.

I started my 1st marine aquarium circa 1982. I’ve been reefing since 1992, successful mixed reef of the day. In and out of the hobby over the decades, but always keeping up with current trends. Current ReefSquad member… I’d consider myself a long term, successful reefer. Heck, I was successfully breeding and raising Erectus and Kuda seahorses in the mid 90’s. Not a newby.

Started a 140g system 3 years ago. Never in my life have I experienced a system as problematic as this one. Current specs: 60x30x18” tank. 2x Kessel AP700 lights. 55g sump, ½ full of healthy Chaetomorpha under a Zetlight E200s. Vertex 180i skimmer. 8x flow through sump. 4x 1900GPH Rossmont Mover wave pumps on waver... 80lbs of Marco Rock, 3 years old, 2x Marinepure Bricks. BRS 2 stage reactor, currently idle.

I can’t keep SPS or LPS alive. None. Even plain old Monti cap just fades away. Clams, same thing, I’ve killed 5 now. Softies, polyps, leathers, zoanthinds, palythoa… they’re fine, but that’s all I can keep. Beautiful 5” ORA Squamosa, dying. 6” bubble coral, dying. 5” Elegance, died a few weeks ago. Buddy of mine keeps giving me purple and orange Montipora Cap frags, growing like a weed in his reef, I keep killing them. Acropora, stylophora, monti digi, heck, I can’t grow pest corals like Pocillipora. Just fade away.

I’ve done Triton tests, nothing out of the ordinary, Lithium a bit low (80ppm). Seneye shows par levels of 550 to 250, depending on depth and placement. Nitrates <25 (Red Sea) Phosphates ~0.1 (Hanna ULR) Ammonia 0 Calcium 420 (Nyos) Alk 7.5 DKH (Hanna) Phosphate 1320 (Nyos) Dosing 25ML / day BRS 2Part on Neptune DOS. Doing 40 gallon bi-weekly water changes with 0 TDS RO/DI and Reef Crystals, mixed to 1.026 (Refractometer). pH ranges 7.4 – 7.6 (Neptune probe) Temp 77.7 to 78.4. I’ve thrown out test kits, recalibrated probes, tested refractometer against known samples, etc… several times now.

Here’s the question: Empty the system, bleach the tank, buy new rock, and start over… or not.

I’m not a quitter. This tank WILL BE successful… no matter what it takes. If successful means a tank full of leathers and zoanthids, honestly, I’m willing to live with that, but there is SOMETHING WRONG… and I sure as heck wish I could figure it out.

Oh… I’ll be at Reef-a-paloosa this weekend… see a guy looks like a mean version of Santa Claus… that’ll be me. Love to talk to you about it in person.

Oh… Reel Reef Rock has a booth… bet they’d sell me some fresh rock

that’s my dream tanks dimensions. Ive had a wall in my living room completely empty for a year prepping to have one built. As to your problem. Has the tank ever successfully kept sps/lps alive or is this a recent development? Are the phosphates .1 or .01 (not that either would explain this 100%). I don’t remember how the ULR reads. *edit. Pic just loaded I see the fish*
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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Yeah. So I’m a huge proponent of live rock from KP or TB Saltwater or any other way you can obtain it. I just haven’t had the same success with dry rock as I’ve had with live rock. My current system is a mix but only after I ran into all sorts of issues with Pukani dry rock.

I don't like 'dry, live rock'... meaning that harvested from the sea, and allowed to die. Seems like a bad idea, and unsustainable. Marco's rock is mined. Hasn't been anything living in it for thousands of years, at least. I _LOVE_ live rock, wet shipped, but it's questionable, from a sustainability standpoint, and the pests you have to deal with...

Nope. I'll stay with dry, mined rock... or some sort of man made, sustainable substitute.
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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Have you considered stopping dosing? Just water changes for a while?
Did. Started it back up a few weeks ago. 25ml is minimal... without it, my DKH drops to the 6's between water changes. Xenia, mainly, is growing with gusto.
 

ca1ore

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Hmmn .....

You don’t specifically say, but I assume you are using a competent RODI system for your source water. That you are able to keep softies suggests that whatever the issue, it likely not something there that shouldn’t be there. Even though your WQ levels look fine, there may be something missing. I track my success with SPS/LPS to the point where I began using a CaRx. Perhaps that’s worth trying before breaking down the tank.
 

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I’m sorry to hear this. It is really frustrating to think you are doing everything you should but the tank just doesn’t do well. You have much more experience than I do, so I don’t feel like I can chime in with anything valuable that you don’t already know. Just wanted to say I hear your struggles and I hope you find and share the answer. I’ll be at reef a palooza as well. If I see mean Santa I will stop and say hi!!
 

Schweezy

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The stuff from TB Saltwater and KP is aquaculture. They are using limestone that they placed in an off shore, leased site (https://www.kpaquatics.com/product/aquacultured-live-rock/). It’s very sustainable. To each his own on “pests.” I just had better experience with systems started from live rock than seeding dry rock.
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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that’s my dream tanks dimensions. Ive had a wall in my living room completely empty for a year prepping to have one built. As to your problem. Has the tank ever successfully kept sps/lps alive or is this a recent development? Are the phosphates .1 or .01 (not that either would explain this 100%). I don’t remember how the ULR reads. Do you have fish, how are they doing?

My dream tank too :)

Nope. SPS/LPS have ALL died. Tank is 3 years old. Phosphates 0.1, last I measured... been as high as 0.5, as low as 0.08 on the ULR tester. Fishes: Spotbreast angelfish, ocellaris clown, tomini tang, scopus tang, smith's blenny, canary blenny, 3x PJ Cardinals, 2x Ochre Cardinals, 2x Anthius. All healthy, no recent losses (well... lost a goatfish to a carpet anemone.... which since died.) The larger fishes are all under 4" juveniles.
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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I guess you've covered all the common stuff like voltage, magnets, metal exposure. Hmmm.
Yes, but thanks for the post... Been through every bit of equipment, no stray voltage (titanium heater doubles as a ground probe, so there wouldn't be).
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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Hmmn .....

You don’t specifically say, but I assume you are using a competent RODI system for your source water. That you are able to keep softies suggests that whatever the issue, it likely not something there that shouldn’t be there. Even though your WQ levels look fine, there may be something missing. I track my success with SPS/LPS to the point where I began using a CaRx. Perhaps that’s worth trying before breaking down the tank.

RO/DI system from AirWaterIce. In line TDS and TDS Pen both show 0 TDS.

If I new that A thousand dollar CaRx would fix the problem, I'd buy one... but (1) I don't know that, and (2) based on my Calc/Alk readings, I don't believe that's my problem. 2 part DOES WORK...

Oh... tear down the tank? Not happening. Bleach and start over, is NOT tearing down the tank. I'll use the darned thing to house Sepia bandensis before I tear it out. This tank WILL BE successful.
 

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My dream tank too :)

Nope. SPS/LPS have ALL died. Tank is 3 years old. Phosphates 0.1, last I measured... been as high as 0.5, as low as 0.08 on the ULR tester. Fishes: Spotbreast angelfish, ocellaris clown, tomini tang, scopus tang, smith's blenny, canary blenny, 3x PJ Cardinals, 2x Ochre Cardinals, 2x Anthius. All healthy, no recent losses (well... lost a goatfish to a carpet anemone.... which since died.) The larger fishes are all under 4" juveniles.
.1-.5 is high but I’m reaching. That level of loss doesn’t seem right for just a phosphate issue unless your dry rock is leeching much higher lvls and your chaeto or other method of removal is masking how much is really there? I’m a big fan of starting totally dry like you but I cure my mined rock for 6+ months with GFO in a tub specifically to let it leech out phosphates and remove them before they hit my system. Have you had any algae issues? I like the post below this a lot. While I don’t love using FL live rock in this instance I don’t think there’s much to lose. You get a pest, oh well you were contemplating breaking down anyway. If it seeds and you see improvement then you can reevaluate from there.
 
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Mark

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If it were my tank, I would:

  1. Throw out the marine pure bricks.
  2. Stop doing water changes for a while.
  3. Add some FL farmed rock pieces to seed the tank some.
  4. Reduce your lighting(if you are still using the Kessils) by 20%. Lots of par meters undermeasure PAR from LED. See how the corals respond.
  5. Calibrate your temp probe.
 

MnFish1

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Have you considered that some of your soft corals may be releasing toxins, etc- ?
Your Ph - though its not terrible - and I dont usually concentrate on pH - Does it or your alk fluctuate when you are doing 'so much water changing'? Honestly - it may be that you are doing 'too much'. 40 gallons of water changes - 2 times a week (or did I misunderstand and you meant every other week - biweekly can mean both)
Lastly - where are you sourcing yoru corals, etc - Some from friends like you said - is it possible you have some coral damaging pests (AEFW, ETC) that could be causing some of yoru problems?
Is your PAR meter accurate (and your other tests)? Is the color spectrum 'correct'?

Sorry to ask so many questions - just some things I thought of.
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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RO/DI system from AirWaterIce. In line TDS and TDS Pen both show 0 TDS. 2 stage mixed bed DI... it's a quality system.

If I new that A thousand dollar CaRx would fix the problem, I'd buy one... but (1) I don't know that, and (2) based on my Calc/Alk readings, I don't believe that's my problem. 2 part DOES WORK...

Oh... tear down the tank? Not happening. Bleach and start over, is NOT tearing down the tank. I'll use the darned thing to house Sepia bandensis before I tear it out. This tank WILL BE successful.
 
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Greybeard

Greybeard

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If it were my tank, I would:

  1. Throw out the marine pure bricks.
  2. Stop doing water changes for a while.
  3. Add some FL farmed rock pieces to seed the tank some.
  4. Reduce your lighting(if you are still using the Kessils) by 20%. Lots of par meters undermeasure PAR from LED. See how the corals respond.
  5. Calibrate your temp probe.

1) Why? Aluminum is not high... that's the only downside I've ever heard with marinepure. Something else I'm missing?
2) Even my softies start looking bad if I miss a water change.
3) Not a bad idea... might end up going that way... Tank is currently free of aptasia, and I dearly like it that way...
4) T5's in photo are gone. 2x Kessel AP700's are current lighting, running AB+ color, at 40% intensity, for a 6 hour day. Softies (low light) corals are growing great... SPS and LPS, even in shaded areas, are not. Might be too little light, certainly not too much.
5) Have done so, and I'm running 2x temp probes on my Apex, but yeah... always good advice.
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

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