Time to stop venting: how do we (as hobbyists) ACTUALLY influence equipment manufacturers to improve product quality?

[windemerejack]

Here the problem with outing the company. The thread will be taken down because the company is a sponsor of this form. When a company is paying hundreds of dollars for a sponsorship the form will protect them from threads that give them a negative review. Happens all the time which IMO is wrong.

If that does happen then it is definitely wrong, peopke need to know about companies whether good or bad, although to be fair, people should give more reviews when a company acts in a good light rather than just waiting until something bad happens, and then slates them.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

Here the problem with outing the company. The thread will be taken down because the company is a sponsor of this form. When a company is paying hundreds of dollars for a sponsorship the form will protect them from threads that give them a negative review. Happens all the time which IMO is wrong.

This.... Right... Here....

They're essentially buying good publicity (by muting bad publicity). Are people seriously afraid of "getting in trouble" on a fish forum if they talk bad about a company so they don't name those companies/vendors?

Being a "privately owned" site, I suppose R2R can do whatever they want, but as soon as you start silencing "problem posts" by moving them to their own segregated sections out of the public eyes or straight up deleting then, you become a shill for that company.

 

[ca1ore]

One point I want to bring to consideration is heaters. From what I have seen most people have experienced issues and problems with their heaters and heating controllers. Whether its a stuck on, explosion/meltdown, or it just stops working. I find this Unacceptable and think that the fact that a heater won’t last a 1-3 years is disgusting. OUR House heaters and water heaters last 20 heaters... so why can’t aquarium heaters.
And sorry to all who said the solution is to keep my wallet away.. A heater is a necessity XD

I think perhaps you’ve not bought a water heater for your house lately. 10 years .... maybe. Part of the problem with aquarium heaters is the tendency for most/many people to buy cheap. Then, you get what you pay for. I’ve used EBJ and Finnex. They cost a bit more, but I’ve had very few issues. When I have, the company has stood behind their product. Spend $10 on a TopFin heater and then complain when it fails seems to me to miss the forest for the trees.

 

[ca1ore]

Here the problem with outing the company. The thread will be taken down because the company is a sponsor of this form. When a company is paying hundreds of dollars for a sponsorship the form will protect them from threads that give them a negative review. Happens all the time which IMO is wrong.

Only true if it’s in the sponsors forum page ..... or if folks exceed the dictates of civility. A cursory search will reveal lots of threads excoriating vendors. No conspiracy theory required.

Identifying the ‘offending’ vendor in this case rather misses the point I think the OP was making .... namely a generally poor record of reliability in this hobby. I don’t personally agree with the premise, though I have had the occasional issue with certain products. In most cases the manufacturer made acceptable good faith efforts to address the problem.

As a general rule I:

1. Try to avoid being an early adopter
2. Avoid ‘fly-by-night’ vendors
3. Buy what I perceive as quality .... cheap correlates highly with short usable lifetime.
4. Be reasonable/constructive in any conversations with customer service folks (having been one early in my career).

 

[WVNed]

If you go on the internet complaining about something I have used for many years or a supplier I have bought from many times, one that I know many other people use as well and recommended to me all those years ago.

Do you think I am going to have a revelation suddenly that it is a crappy product or do you think I will think you are being a pain or perhaps you are just doing it wrong?

 

[reefiniteasy]

Everything breaks, most often it’s probably user caused or lack of maintenance. I also don’t think that a broken piece of equipment and one person’s experience is indicative of a need for higher quality.

I don’t buy anything I can’t afford to replace regardless of whether there is a warranty available.

Edit: collectively I don’t think there is anything to do. Individually, spend your money elsewhere.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The question was " How do we influence manufacturers to improve quality"

FOR ME. . . . i WONT BUY IT UNTIL THEY MAKE IT RIGHT and evryone should follow the same suit. Problem is 100 of us refuse to buy based on overprice, poor quality or poor performance but the other 100 take their chance and buy it anyway.
thrre plus decades in the hobby and a former pet retailer, Ecotech has been about the worse ive seen. I can mention a coule of others but with known issues, they choose 1 out of 4 to work with and the other three are blamed for mishandling, misuse or negligence when they have 200 similar complaints and they are always ready to sell you replacements rather than exercise customer SATISFACTION and repeat business from a consumer.

 

[dbowman5]

Hi,
the OP was not complaining about a particular company or product as much as asking a reasonable question about practical solutions to a problem that we have. 'venting' is emotionally satisfying, but, does it work to improve the equipment we use? 'Outing' a provider of a product or service, as interesting a concept as that is, seems to imply a hidden motive or agenda, or misrepresentation of known facts. Absent knowledge of that, it is not useful to publish as fact, one's opinion.
We perform a service to our hobby by documenting our experience. we support our hobby by providing guidance to other hobbyists. the companies who cater to our hobby are interested in our opinions and experience. We are passionate about it, (some of us) and get excited about product performance. perhaps a product survey forum where we list our inventory of products and years of service for each. if i want a skimmer i could look at the total number of skimmers in use, the breakdown by brand, the breakdown by type and size, the years in use, the trend by year for each, the lifespan, the problems, then compare warranties and price. then i could make a reasonable decision and add my data to the total. I think manufacturers do this type of research prior to introducing a product.
What i do is: look at the equipment forums; look at the sales sites; think about my system's needs; look at my expense tracking spreadsheet; look at my wallet balance; think for a couple of seconds and throw a dart. i aim at mid-range equipment knowing that it will probably be upgraded in a while as i learn more and dial in my preferences.
thank you for your comments on this topic, we need to be able to express them, being mindful that the R2R community includes the providers we re discussing. Flaming at members is frowned upon whether the member is a noob, a seasoned reefer, a LFS owner, a distributor, or supplier. I expect to have erroneous information that i believe to be true. if i express that, i hope someone will let me know that i have something gotten something wrong without ridicule. that my understanding or experience does not correspond with theirs without adding that they think i am intentionally misleading in my statements. I love this particular community. my opinions are just that, not intended to contradict any others.

 

[Crustaceon]

The simple answer is you stop buying things with short warranties. If enough reefers suddenly start buying what that company considers a inferior product because it has a much better warranty, they’ll extend theirs to match. Sometimes the warranty is the BEST feature anyways.

 

[Ippyroy]

Hi,
the OP was not complaining about a particular company or product as much as asking a reasonable question about practical solutions to a problem that we have. 'venting' is emotionally satisfying, but, does it work to improve the equipment we use? 'Outing' a provider of a product or service, as interesting a concept as that is, seems to imply a hidden motive or agenda, or misrepresentation of known facts. Absent knowledge of that, it is not useful to publish as fact, one's opinion.
We perform a service to our hobby by documenting our experience. we support our hobby by providing guidance to other hobbyists. the companies who cater to our hobby are interested in our opinions and experience. We are passionate about it, (some of us) and get excited about product performance. perhaps a product survey forum where we list our inventory of products and years of service for each. if i want a skimmer i could look at the total number of skimmers in use, the breakdown by brand, the breakdown by type and size, the years in use, the trend by year for each, the lifespan, the problems, then compare warranties and price. then i could make a reasonable decision and add my data to the total. I think manufacturers do this type of research prior to introducing a product.
What i do is: look at the equipment forums; look at the sales sites; think about my system's needs; look at my expense tracking spreadsheet; look at my wallet balance; think for a couple of seconds and throw a dart. i aim at mid-range equipment knowing that it will probably be upgraded in a while as i learn more and dial in my preferences.
thank you for your comments on this topic, we need to be able to express them, being mindful that the R2R community includes the providers we re discussing. Flaming at members is frowned upon whether the member is a noob, a seasoned reefer, a LFS owner, a distributor, or supplier. I expect to have erroneous information that i believe to be true. if i express that, i hope someone will let me know that i have something gotten something wrong without ridicule. that my understanding or experience does not correspond with theirs without adding that they think i am intentionally misleading in my statements. I love this particular community. my opinions are just that, not intended to contradict any others.

I think a separate forum specifically for product reviews on R2R is an excellent idea. Only members with an updated build thread would be allowed to post the reviews, and have to have a link to them. This would allow people to easily see how much maintenance is done and how the device works. It would also make it a lot easier to learn how the device was set up. If someone leaves a bad review, it might be a lot easier to check out the build thread and see if it is an honest review that I would trust.

 

[Bepis]

I think perhaps you’ve not bought a water heater for your house lately. 10 years .... maybe. Part of the problem with aquarium heaters is the tendency for most/many people to buy cheap. Then, you get what you pay for. I’ve used EBJ and Finnex. They cost a bit more, but I’ve had very few issues. When I have, the company has stood behind their product. Spend $10 on a TopFin heater and then complain when it fails seems to me to miss the forest for the trees.

No I bought Finnex, they laid around for a year then I put water in my tank. A year after that on a hot summer day one of them stuck on. Thankfully no fish or corals were in the tank but that could have destroyed my tanks sump considered it reached a somewhat 95degrees

 

[jda]

People need to hear about honest and fair criticisms of products. Otherwise, all that they have is the ridiculous unboxing videos, build threads with photos of equipment in boxes still and infomercials that come from BRS.

Be honest and fair and it is good. If you whine or used a product wrong, then I don't want to hear it.

I do find it truly amazing that the thread purpose was to inspire some change, but the people wont' change to honestly and fairly point out substandard products.

 

[Biglew11]

I typically read the negative reviews of a product to see if there's common problems that people have. I've gotten pretty good at weeding out the complainers from actual problems. Also customer service is very high on the list.

I accept the fact that even very good products will sometimes fail prematurely. It's how customer service treats me that decides weather I'll come back or not. A good product that has bad customer service just lost a costomer, and a load of negative reviews. Good customer service and I may mention the issue with the product, but I'll also mention the the good customer service to fix the issue.

Many years ago when I built my own computers, I had a motherboard catch fire while i was using it. It was 1 month old and well within the warranty period. However the physical damage was not covered under warranty so they weren't going to honor any warranty. I raised hell with them and the b.b.b. if a product can catch fire under normal conditions and not modified that they should warranty the product. I was able to prove that the board was ran as stock and they did eventually replace it. But they lost a potential repeat customer and i made sure everyone knew of there customer service.

Someone else already said that most of the stuff we purchase is hobby level products. If you want stuff that's going to last it's going to cost you alot more to get professional level products.

 

[SeeFu]

I typically read the negative reviews of a product to see if there's common problems that people have. I've gotten pretty good at weeding out the complainers from actual problems. Also customer service is very high on the list.

I accept the fact that even very good products will sometimes fail prematurely. It's how customer service treats me that decides weather I'll come back or not. A good product that has bad customer service just lost a costomer, and a load of negative reviews. Good customer service and I may mention the issue with the product, but I'll also mention the the good customer service to fix the issue.

Many years ago when I built my own computers, I had a motherboard catch fire while i was using it. It was 1 month old and well within the warranty period. However the physical damage was not covered under warranty so they weren't going to honor any warranty. I raised hell with them and the b.b.b. if a product can catch fire under normal conditions and not modified that they should warranty the product. I was able to prove that the board was ran as stock and they did eventually replace it. But they lost a potential repeat customer and i made sure everyone knew of there customer service.

Someone else already said that most of the stuff we purchase is hobby level products. If you want stuff that's going to last it's going to cost you alot more to get professional level products.

i agree with this. this is a niche market so customer service is way more important than just about anything else to me.

 

[burningmime]

'Outing' a provider of a product or service, as interesting a concept as that is, seems to imply a hidden motive or agenda, or misrepresentation of known facts.

Not at all; it implies simply that the facts are new, or widely unknown. Most people will (ideally) never need to repair a given product or contact customer support. If you do, sharing that experience is absolutely valuable. Or if a brand-new product comers to market and there are major flaws in it, that information is simply not known (perhaps even by the company that made it, if they did not test it in those conditions).

There's rarely much of a hidden motive here -- companies sell products to make money. And there's rarely much misrepresentation of facts going on. Just that the facts aren't available.

 

[pmkinsella]

I think a separate forum specifically for product reviews on R2R is an excellent idea. Only members with an updated build thread would be allowed to post the reviews, and have to have a link to them. This would allow people to easily see how much maintenance is done and how the device works. It would also make it a lot easier to learn how the device was set up. If someone leaves a bad review, it might be a lot easier to check out the build thread and see if it is an honest review that I would trust.

I appreciate all the thoughtful comments. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any manufacturers chime in (even anonymously) to take a position, which is what I was hoping.

Again, without naming companies, my personal frustration is NOT with any inexpensive components - in fact, some of the most well-known (and high priced) brands in the hobby. Without getting into details, when customer care suggests that it is the LED driver because that "commonly fails" at around 3 years, isn't that a problem for an $800 light? An application of conformal coating over the PC board (asinine that it isn't done in wet environment already) + selection of higher quality passive components would add about $5 in manufacturing cost and extend the life by years, yet manufacturers choose not to do so and still charge a premium price.

That being said, I really like the idea of a dedicated forum (requiring a build thread, as noted) for mature reviews / comments on products or brands, absent of censorship based on sponsorship. Is that something R2R would (or could, given the importance of the income stream to support this site we all know and love) get on board with?

 

[jda]

Since you won't name names and give an honest review, more people will buy these products since they don't know that others feel that they are not adequately built or warrantied leaving the companies with no incentive to make them better since their units are selling well. Can't you see the circular nature and that this is enabling the very behavior that you wanted to change?

Also, how would any manufacturer know to chime in since none were mentioned?

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

I appreciate all the thoughtful comments. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any manufacturers chime in (even anonymously) to take a position, which is what I was hoping.

Again, without naming companies, my personal frustration is NOT with any inexpensive components - in fact, some of the most well-known (and high priced) brands in the hobby. Without getting into details, when customer care suggests that it is the LED driver because that "commonly fails" at around 3 years, isn't that a problem for an $800 light? An application of conformal coating over the PC board (asinine that it isn't done in wet environment already) + selection of higher quality passive components would add about $5 in manufacturing cost and extend the life by years, yet manufacturers choose not to do so and still charge a premium price.

In bold, imo, is part of the problem... But thats just my opinion, worth about 2 cents in a good day.

 

[Biglew11]

Without getting into details, when customer care suggests that it is the LED driver because that "commonly fails" at around 3 years, isn't that a problem for an $800 light? An application of conformal coating over the PC board (asinine that it isn't done in wet environment already) + selection of higher quality passive components would add about $5 in manufacturing cost and extend the life by years, yet manufacturers choose not to do so and still charge a premium price.

I don't think i've ever seen a warranty on ANY electronic device or component over 1 year let alone 3. most (consumer) level hobby level products of any kind not just reef have a warranty of about 90 days. and this is stuff not designed to get wet. granted most of these will last much longer than that, but they are not usually in a harsh environment.

higher priced manufactures' do take into account their products are used in a wet environment and apply a generous layer of conformal coatings. electronic components can and do fail no matter what environment they are in. companies are in business to make money not loos it. the warranty is kind of a compromise between the company and the buyer, that the buyer is getting a product that will last a reasonable amount of time, and that the company can still make a profit off its products.

Again, without naming companies, my personal frustration is NOT with any inexpensive components - in fact, some of the most well-known (and high priced) brands in the hobby.

as said above if you don't or won't say a company has a problem with there products, HOW ARE THEY GOING TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE A COMMON PROBLEM THAT COULD BE FIXED? Look at auto recalls for example, do you think they would recall there stuff if people didn't complain? if a product has a one year warranty and 75% are failing at 6 months the company should know about this. if on the other hand 95% are still going 1.5 years then there's no problem.

selection of higher quality passive components would add about $5 in manufacturing cost and extend the life by years, yet manufacturers choose not to do so and still charge a premium price.

the passive components (resistors, capacitors, diodes, transformers) almost never fail. it's the other sensitive electronic components (i.c. chips, voltage regulators) that usually fail. replacing components that rarely fail with with higher cost options only adds to the cost of a product without adding enough longevity too the product to make it worth while. most people will have already upgraded their light by the time something like a capacitor will likely fail.

 

[shoelaceike]

Marineland and Aqueon sell their tanks for pennies and have a lifetime warranty....high end expensive tanks usually only have a 1 year warranty