To Clean or Not to Clean the Sand Bed when Treating for LCA Dino's?

[Steve2020]

I have LCA Dino's and I am dosing silicates, bacteria and phyto. I have read just about every thread/post on LCA and am confused about tank cleaning. If dosing silicates to attempt to create a diatom bloom is it recommended to clean/remove or not to clean/remove the top layer of sand? Also since dosing silicates I am getting a brown film on the glass. Should I clean or not clean the glass? Prior to starting the treatment I did remove the top layer of sand, and sand looked good for a few days until the LCA returned in the exact same locations. Also I have shut down my UV since I began treatment since LCA is not waterborne.
Recommendations would be appreciated on the cleaning aspect.
Thank you!!

 

[Mike konesky]

I'm having better luck syphoning just the dinos and minimal sand out with a baster. Complete sand syphon seems to make it worse.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

I'd recommend Dr Tims, phyto bacterial additives to take care of pest microscopic algae species. The package is under dinoflaggelate control, but works with diatoms and cyano. Its the Waste Away and Refresh bundle from BRS. it also has detailed dosing instructions and a 2 week proceedure, staring with a 3 day black out period.

80 gallon Dinoflagellate Treatment Bundle

Are you ready to beat dinoflagellates? Arm yourself with the right tools to win, and say goodbye to the dinoflagellate scourge! Dr. Tim's treatment regimen, using the bacterial strains within Re-Fresh and Waste Away, forms an important part of the solution to dinoflagellates by creating less...

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[Steve2020]

I'm having better luck syphoning just the dinos and minimal sand out with a baster. Complete sand syphon seems to make it worse.

Quick question, how are you able to just blast and syphon the dyno's when LCA is on the individual grains of sand? Are you using something like a turkey baster and blasting the sand while having a syphon hose near where your blasting? If so in my case this may take days to do my whole shallow sand bed. Tank is 84x30x24.

 

[Steve2020]

I'd recommend Dr Tims, phyto bacterial additives to take care of pest microscopic algae species. The package is under dinoflaggelate control, but works with diatoms and cyano. Its the Waste Away and Refresh bundle from BRS. it also has detailed dosing instructions and a 2 week proceedure, staring with a 3 day black out period.

80 gallon Dinoflagellate Treatment Bundle

Are you ready to beat dinoflagellates? Arm yourself with the right tools to win, and say goodbye to the dinoflagellate scourge! Dr. Tim's treatment regimen, using the bacterial strains within Re-Fresh and Waste Away, forms an important part of the solution to dinoflagellates by creating less...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I watched Dr Tims video and read many reviews about this treatment and read that there was success with other types of Dino's but ZERO success against LCA Dino's.

 

[njreefkeeper]

I’m going through a similar battle in one of my tanks as we speak. A couple months ago I’d thought I’d had them beat at the 6 month mark of the tank being set up. I was stirring the sand one day and then saw those telltale stringies floating toward the surface and thought “oh no.” Within a couple days the whole sand bed was stringy brown again and they were back. Obviously this tank was started with dry rock and sand.

I remembered a talk that Julian Sprung gave where he was asked about dinoflagellates and he said they’re caused not only in a new tank without bacterial colonization but also from a disturbance in the system. I now believe that stirring a new sand bed in a dry rock/dry sand tank upsets the biome and causes this disturbance. I started dosing MB7 and stopped using a turkey baster on the rocks or stirring the sand and I’m noticing they’re retreating and dying off. I honestly don’t think I’ll be stirring the sand or using a turkey baster (at least until a year of the tank being set up) so that bacteria have a fighting chance at outcompeting the Dinos without my “helpful intervention”.

 

[Mike konesky]

Quick question, how are you able to just blast and syphon the dyno's when LCA is on the individual grains of sand? Are you using something like a turkey baster and blasting the sand while having a syphon hose near where your blasting? If so in my case this may take days to do my whole shallow sand bed. Tank is 84x30x24.

No syphon hose. Just a turkey baster sucking up dinos and as little sand as possible, and lots of patience. Yes it takes forever, but it's working.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

I watched Dr Tims video and read many reviews about this treatment and read that there was success with other types of Dino's but ZERO success against LCA Dino's.

hmm, I see, well some pest algae are harder to combat than others. I'm not familiar with LCA, but if its photosynthetic... the process should work. (If it also a heterotroph... well, hmm) From my personal experience with dealing with dinos, is that the cysts will colonize all surface areas of the system, including dried surfaces above the low water line, ie the glass walls or plumbing in your sump, or also on dried nets and plastic racks, or other rocks, dried filter socks, etc that are removed from the system, left out to dry and then reintroduced back.
For me, it took 3 times to control my generic (unidentified) dinos after the black out period and bacterial dosing, before I figured it out. I removed the frag rack, which was bubbly with dinos, and let it dry out, thinking it would die out. (on month 2, I also rinsed it off with tap water), I then treated my system for the 2 weeks as prescribed by Dr Tims procedure which was successful. Then I reintroduced my crusty rack and bam, dinos were bubbling off of it within hours and re infected the system. For my third and final try, I left everything in the system, kept the water at my high level mark for the 2 weeks, wiped down the salt creep and all exposed glass, piping, etc, with sea water to flush all the cycts into the water, THEN retreated for 2 weeks, at which point the dinos didn't come back. As for all my nets, quarantine boxes, drip lines, etc, I bleached those out using a standard protocol of 5 to 10% solution. I work in a medical/research lab and it took me 3 tries, using scientific observation to figure this little detail out. heh. GL
NOTE, Dr tims bacteria are planktonic species, which stay in the water column and are filtered out with skimming, where as micro bacter 7 are benthic. which is a major difference and why I use Dr Tims. A planktonic bacterial bloom should displace all other planktonic species, such as dino, whereas micro backter 7 doesn't not occupy the same niche. (I assume your LCA is planktonic over night as other dinos are).

 

[Steve2020]

hmm, I see, well some pest algae are harder to combat than others. I'm not familiar with LCA, but if its photosynthetic... the process should work. (If it also a heterotroph... well, hmm) From my personal experience with dealing with dinos, is that the cysts will colonize all surface areas of the system, including dried surfaces above the low water line, ie the glass walls or plumbing in your sump, or also on dried nets and plastic racks, or other rocks, dried filter socks, etc that are removed from the system, left out to dry and then reintroduced back.
For me, it took 3 times to control my generic (unidentified) dinos after the black out period and bacterial dosing, before I figured it out. I removed the frag rack, which was bubbly with dinos, and let it dry out, thinking it would die out. (on month 2, I also rinsed it off with tap water), I then treated my system for the 2 weeks as prescribed by Dr Tims procedure which was successful. Then I reintroduced my crusty rack and bam, dinos were bubbling off of it within hours and re infected the system. For my third and final try, I left everything in the system, kept the water at my high level mark for the 2 weeks, wiped down the salt creep and all exposed glass, piping, etc, with sea water to flush all the cycts into the water, THEN retreated for 2 weeks, at which point the dinos didn't come back. As for all my nets, quarantine boxes, drip lines, etc, I bleached those out using a standard protocol of 5 to 10% solution. I work in a medical/research lab and it took me 3 tries, using scientific observation to figure this little detail out. heh. GL
NOTE, Dr tims bacteria are planktonic species, which stay in the water column and are filtered out with skimming, where as micro bacter 7 are benthic. which is a major difference and why I use Dr Tims. A planktonic bacterial bloom should displace all other planktonic species, such as dino, whereas micro backter 7 doesn't not occupy the same niche. (I assume your LCA is planktonic over night as other dinos are).

From what I have read Large Cell Amphidinium Dinoflagellates are not waterborne. At night they go slightly deeper in the sand bed and disappear. Planktonic organisms from what I have read are dispersed within the water column. I am alternating dosing MB7 and MB Clean because like you said some if not all of the bacteria in MB7 is benthic.

 

[CookieRdReef]

I removed the top maybe 1/2 to inch of sand that had rhick dinos. I put Ocean Direct sand on top of what I removed. I did a lot of manual removal, dosed silicates, dosed phyto added lots of pods, dosed PNS pro bio, raised temp to 82, dosed Brightwell Biofuel, long blackout when I thought they were almost beat. My 6 month battle only ended after I went all out on them, not just doing 1-2 things the waiting.

 

[Steve2020]

30 minutes ago I took a scoop of sand where the dino's have been and shook it up in a container and looked at a sample under the microscope and only saw 2 LCA dino's but saw hundreds of diatoms and a little phytoplankton. Does this mean the silicate, bacteria and phyto dosing is working? Should I just leave the sand alone for awhile?

 

[homegrowncichlid]

From what I have read Large Cell Amphidinium Dinoflagellates are not waterborne. At night they go slightly deeper in the sand bed and disappear. Planktonic organisms from what I have read are dispersed within the water column. I am alternating dosing MB7 and MB Clean because like you said some if not all of the bacteria in MB7 is benthic.

oh I see, sand borne. hmm, if you're willing to go for a black out period of longer than 3 days, that may be an issue, even if you moved your corals out, you will be reintroducing it back in afterwards. hmm, tough call. I would assume a 7 day total black out will solve your problem, along with bacterial additives to out compete the dinos.
I have sacrificed coral heads in the past, but maintain a separate frag rack for reintroduction.
I currently grow multiple frags on each new coral I get, introducing just one frag into the display, while the "spares" grow out as insurance. Doesn't apply to LPS though, since they take too long to split.

 

[Steve2020]

I removed the top maybe 1/2 to inch of sand that had rhick dinos. I put Ocean Direct sand on top of what I removed. I did a lot of manual removal, dosed silicates, dosed phyto added lots of pods, dosed PNS pro bio, raised temp to 82, dosed Brightwell Biofuel, long blackout when I thought they were almost beat. My 6 month battle only ended after I went all out on them, not just doing 1-2 things the waiting.

WOW!! What a difference. Good job. That does not look like LCA though.

 

[CookieRdReef]

WOW!! What a difference. Good job. That does not look like LCA though.

I confirmed under a microscope they were lca

 

[GuppyHJD]

I have read hundreds of posts and I can't say I have found a pattern that works for the majority. Perhaps it is just the differences in the tank. I have been dosing silicates, phyto, pods and MB7. The glass got covered in brown (diatoms?), but a few days later is clear as can be. The snails I know enjoyed some of it.

 

[Steve2020]

I confirmed under a microscope they were lca

Is that just hair algae on the rocks? That's what was confusing me it not looking like LCA.

 

[Steve2020]

I have read hundreds of posts and I can't say I have found a pattern that works for the majority. Perhaps it is just the differences in the tank. I have been dosing silicates, phyto, pods and MB7. The glass got covered in brown (diatoms?), but a few days later is clear as can be. The snails I know enjoyed some of it.

Are you leaving the sand and glass alone or are you cleaning it? Still trying to get a recommendation on whether to clean or leave alone.

 

[brandon429]

Dinos force control, species ID doesn't matter

Custom rip clean thread for nanos, top cure for dinos and cyano above any method.

This is probably my fiftieth rip clean thread, they tend to go out pages and pages of jobs over time. Let’s start a new 2022 one here reasons rip cleaning is the best option for nanos to rid your tank of cyano and dinos: known fix date and no tradeoff invasions. What do we see in the dinos...

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Only helpful for nanos due to hassle of big tank takedown cleaning

 

[CookieRdReef]

Is that just hair algae on the rocks? That's what was confusing me it not looking like LCA.

Not hair algae, I confirmed under a micorscope. I dissapeared mostly at night unlike hair algae.

 

[Steve2020]

Not hair algae, I confirmed under a micorscope. I dissapeared mostly at night unlike hair algae.

Sorry if I seem confused but LCA is only on the sand bed and maybe at the base of rocks on the sand from what I have researched. Your rocks are completely covered. Could it have also been Prorocentrum since they look very close to LCA under a microscope? My rocks are clean and only have LCA on the sand. Anyways, good job on getting rid of your dino's. Hopefully I have the same success.