To dose or not to dose, that is the question.

[Timfish]

First, I’ve been there! Find your happy place! Don’t go from one extreme to the other. Pick a good dip and use it. Please don’t dip your coral in 3 different concoctions!

Make small changes. Give each one time. What we do today, we may not see the benefit/down side for couple months.

Test frequently if you can. Not the end of your tank if you miss a day. Become confident on test procedures and get a feeling of how your tank is doing.

Seconded

It almost seems like when I did very little my tank was happy (especially when it was Fallow). That sure was a ton of information to digest. I just hope it’s not disease that’s in my tank. I’m not a number chaser. I definitely like richard Ross’ approach. Easy is always nice but, until I can understand what’s goin on I’ll continue to test and medicate as needed. I’m convinced that something came in on one of my corals coupled with the reef roids that I target fed that reeked havoc on my tank or so I feel. My dipping habits will definitely tighten up. Instead of just reef dip, I’ll also do either a bayer dip or the poly lab reef prime and possibly all 3. This reef stuff can sure be nerve wracking.

A problem with dipping is many of the pathogens of corals already are present in the coral holobiont. It's the right balance of viruses, bacteria and other stuff that are beneficial for corals that keep the pathogens in check. Stress, of any kind (lighting, water chemistry, nutrients, temperature, microbial stuff and supplements and medications) can help shift the microbiome from a healthy one to an unhealthy one. Even if a coral looks "healthy" it can have a microbiome that has already shifted. Immune systems of corals also can vary significantly at the genotype level so one coral may do well but another coral of the same species may not. Because of the time it can take for a coral to recover it's important to wait to see how corals are responding. Constantly changing things doesn't allow a stable ecossytem to develop.

Since you mentioned feeding here's some research showing how complicated that subject is.

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Coral farming: effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals as model experimental organisms. In this study, we examine species-specific responses in growth and

www.academia.edu

 

[olonmv]

Seconded



A problem with dipping is many of the pathogens of corals already are present in the coral holobiont. It's the right balance of viruses, bacteria and other stuff that are beneficial for corals that keep the pathogens in check. Stress, of any kind (lighting, water chemistry, nutrients, temperature, microbial stuff and supplements and medications) can help shift the microbiome from a healthy one to an unhealthy one. Even if a coral looks "healthy" it can have a microbiome that has already shifted. Immune systems of corals also can vary significantly at the genotype level so one coral may do well but another coral of the same species may not. Because of the time it can take for a coral to recover it's important to wait to see how corals are responding. Constantly changing things doesn't allow a stable ecossytem to develop.

Since you mentioned feeding here's some research showing how complicated that subject is.

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Coral farming: effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals as model experimental organisms. In this study, we examine species-specific responses in growth and

www.academia.edu

Great, more confusing stuff to add to my already scattered brain lol. I mix 1 cube of frozen mysis and one cube of frozen brine and broadcast feed my tank. Reef roids are the devil (or I just over indulge) because it seems every time I’ve fed, I’ve done it horribly wrong and it throws my tank off. This stuff is way above my pay grade and seems like the road just keeps getting bumpier and bumpier.

 

[Timfish]

Great, more confusing stuff to add to my already scattered brain lol. . . . This stuff is way above my pay grade and seems like the road just keeps getting bumpier and bumpier.

Yup, and it gets worse when you start digging into the research. This seems to be a standard scenario but as you learn more you realize there's a lot more to learn. If it helps, corals have already got all this figured out. What we need to do is maintain alklinity, calcium, magnesium, phosphates and nitrates in acceptable ranges, not specific numbers. pH is important too but most likely if these others are maintained pH will be acceptable too. Corals and algae are manipulating the microbial stuff in the water with the labile Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, which we can't test for) they release into the water so I feel the best way to help corals get and keep the upper hand is with water changes and I generally do around 20-30% a month with small weekly changes.

A really good introduction to the sometimes antagonistc roles of DOC on reefs is FOrest ROhwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" (kindle ~$10, paperback ~$17). You might find these videos informative also. Rohwer's video covers the same subject as his book but there are differences which compliment each other and I would encourage you to get the book as well as watch the video.

Forest Rohwer "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

 

[olonmv]

Yup, and it gets worse when you start digging into the research. This seems to be a standard scenario but as you learn more you realize there's a lot more to learn. If it helps, corals have already got all this figured out. What we need to do is maintain alklinity, calcium, magnesium, phosphates and nitrates in acceptable ranges, not specific numbers. pH is important too but most likely if these others are maintained pH will be acceptable too. Corals and algae are manipulating the microbial stuff in the water with the labile Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, which we can't test for) they release into the water so I feel the best way to help corals get and keep the upper hand is with water changes and I generally do around 20-30% a month with small weekly changes.

A really good introduction to the sometimes antagonistc roles of DOC on reefs is FOrest ROhwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" (kindle ~$10, paperback ~$17). You might find these videos informative also. Rohwer's video covers the same subject as his book but there are differences which compliment each other and I would encourage you to get the book as well as watch the video.

Forest Rohwer "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

I watched all those videos this past Saturday and there’s a lot to digest. I’m picking up some alk and calcium today maybe some magnesium. Any recommendations? Im looking at Kent alk n cal to start until I get a handle on the dosing.

 

[Aqua Man]

parameters test out within range of my normal parameters. This is why I’m confused on when or not to dose.

No need to dose.

It just seems that whenever I test there’s never really a change in my parameters.

Your water changes are keeping up with demand. No need to dose.

I’ll give it a go but it just seems like weekly WC’s replenish what drops. My tank is a nano and has been up and running since October. I have a mixture of LPS and easy SPS. It just seems that whenever I test there’s never really a change in my parameters. Either I’m missing something or my coral just don’t consume a whole Lot.

Once your tank matures and is filled up with growing corals, you will see consumption.
All Alk supplements are pretty much the same. Sodium carbonate and/or sodium bicarbonate in a solution or powder.

 

[olonmv]

No need to dose.

Your water changes are keeping up with demand. No need to dose.

Once your tank matures and is filled up with growing corals, you will see consumption.
All Alk supplements are pretty much the same. Sodium carbonate and/or sodium bicarbonate in a solution or powder.

It’s looking more n more that dosing is gonna have to start dosing. Coralife for calcium and fluval sea for alkalinity ok?

 

[olonmv]

Ok, went with Kent marine superbuffer-DKH and coralife (Kent) liquid calcium. Will go with this and order something else but for the meantime this is what was easily available (petco) if they won’t work I can return. I wanting my alk at 9 and calcium at 420ish
On
7/23 alk was 9 and calcium 396
7/24 alk 8.9 calcium 380
7/25 alk 8.3 calcium 385 followed by 2 gal wc
7/26 alk 8.4 calcium 381
7/27 alk 8.4 calcium 374
All done with Hanna checker
My magnesium stays within 1200-1320 without much fluctuation.

Am I correct in assuming that I need to start dosing?

 

[Acros]

Yes, probably.

The test results dose not show a pattern in alk. Are you testing at the same time every day?

 

[olonmv]

Yes, probably.

The test results dose not show a pattern in alk. Are you testing at the same time every day?

I’ve been testing as close to 4pm as I can daily. My plan of approach is to raise all to 9 slowly and calcium to 420. Can I dose new water when doing wc to 9dkh and 420 on cal once I get tank to those levels? Is that a thing? using the coralife liquid calcium a good choice?

 

[Timfish]

I watched all those videos this past Saturday and there’s a lot to digest. I’m picking up some alk and calcium today maybe some magnesium. Any recommendations? Im looking at Kent alk n cal to start until I get a handle on the dosing.

(Not to intimidate you but those videos are just introductions to the subjects they're covering ) I use sodium bicarbonate for alkalinity and any calcium supplement should be good. I rarely have to dose for magnesium and epsom salts can be used for that, search here for usage instructions. As mentioned above, water changes will help a lot with maintaining levels, don't get too anxious about dosing, some fluctuation should be expected.

 

[olonmv]

(Not to intimidate you but those videos are just introductions to the subjects they're covering ) I use sodium bicarbonate for alkalinity and any calcium supplement should be good. I rarely have to dose for magnesium and epsom salts can be used for that, search here for usage instructions. As mentioned above, water changes will help a lot with maintaining levels, don't get too anxious about dosing, some fluctuation should be expected.

Lol. I was dumbfounded in watching those videos by how much time humans have invested to know as much they know about marine life and the surface isn’t even scratched. Yes, I think I’m finally grasping the concept and breathing a lil easier now that my coral seem a lil better (except the birdsnest). If I get my tank to desired levels, can I dose my new water to match or bring up existing parameters?

 

[Acros]

Doing something like tropic marine all for reef might be easier to start with. It would be too expensive if you have a big tank.

What alk test kit do you use?

 

[Timfish]

@olonmv That's how I usually dose, by adjusting new water during water changes. Keep in mind this revision to the old addage about fooling all the people, "You can keep all the corals for a short time, you can keep some corals all the time but you can't keep all the corals all the time" The microbial processes are very complex and some corals just will not thirve in your system no matter what you do.

 

[olonmv]

Doing something like tropic marine all for reef might be easier to start with. It would be too expensive if you have a big tank.

What alk test kit do you use?

I will look into it. Thanks! What I bought today is just to get my numbers up and buy me some time to research. Since I’ve started doing daily testing on alk and cal, I invested in both tests in Hanna.

 

[olonmv]

@olonmv That's how I usually dose, by adjusting new water during water changes. Keep in mind this revision to the old addage about fooling all the people, "You can keep all the corals for a short time, you can keep some corals all the time but you can't keep all the corals all the time" The microbial processes are very complex and some corals just will not thirve in your system no matter what you do.

Awesome! I’m Watching videos and doing some reading and will start to dose tomorrow. It’s a relief to know that I can bring my desired levels in with new water with water changes. Big sigh of relief! Thanks!

 

[Acros]

I will look into it. Thanks! What I bought today is just to get my numbers up and buy me some time to research. Since I’ve started doing daily testing on alk and cal, I invested in both tests in Hanna.

A tip on Hanna. Use the same vial every day. That should give more consistent results. I try to test everyday within a 10 min window.

In my opinion, there is no reason not to dose once you see a steady 0.1 dkh drop per day.

 

[olonmv]

A tip on Hanna. Use the same vial every day. That should give more consistent results. I try to test everyday within a 10 min window.

In my opinion, there is no reason not to dose once you see a steady 0.1 dkh drop per day.

Yes, I try to be as consistent as I can in my test methods. This is outstanding news. I’ve been stressed for days now. Didn’t know which direction to choose and reading was throwing me for loops. I’m happy that I’ve been helped to finally start to nail a game plan down!!!! Hope this thread helps someone with the same questions I had get out of the fog.

 

[olonmv]

Ok. Am I seeing this correct? According to the calculator, if I want to go from 376 to 422 in calcium. I’m adding 22.6 ml or.7 fl oz or 4.5 tsp of Liguid calcium. Am I adding this to a glass of rodi then to high flow or can I just direct dose it in the high flow as per warning below?
Thanks!

 

[Acros]

I worry that is a big change. There should be people more experienced than me, who will comment.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As noted correctly by that calculator, spread that dose out over a few days.

You can dilute it or not, as you choose.