Toxic killer or miracle cure: Have you used copper in your tank?

[KrisReef]

I dose copper daily into my display. Since I run ozone, it gets depleted quickly (as seen by my ICP-MS results). It is an essential compound for photosynthesis, so I add a very small amount to keep it just barely detectible on an ICP-MS test (it should never be detected on an ICP-OES test).

Please clarify your dose/day and how you do this. I know the amount added is extremely tiny and when I read this I became curious about the process.
Also, someone trying to save a fish using copper might think your method could work for that, and nothing could be further from the truth in application than what you are doing and trying to cure a sick fish need to do, imo.

I didn't know running UV had these kinds of impacts upon the water contents. I guess I still have lots to learn. Thanks!

 

[Jwise]

I had to use it in my display because I had a terrible strain of ick that remained in my display for over three months in a fishless state. I added my fish and found out the hard way that it managed to survive that long in there without fish.( after adding about 7k worth of fish that were all captive bred and captive conditioned im my display at once) I was resorted to use copper power in my display because the fish were not doing good so I had to as a last resort. I hoped that the fish would have been able to fight it off naturally but they couldn't. I always feed my fish garlic and vitamins every feeding as well. The ick still didn't go away, I had to add copper power after a couple of days in between waiting it out to see if it gotten better or not. It didn't so I had kept dosing every couple days and monitoring the fish's health and eventually I gotten the levels up to 4.0 of copper in my display before it finally died and stayed that way for several weeks. That's when I started pulling out the medication and im happy that the tank is almost finally not reading copper anymore after about 5 months of copper in the system. Last water test read 0.3 so im sure that within about a month or so from now it will be cleared from the water because it has been dropping every week pretty quickly at this point. Im glad that it saved all my fish but it sucks that I had to go that route to treat the worse case of ick I had ever had. Needless to say I am done with buying wild caught fish and will only get captive bred and if I need a wild specimen I will only get a certified captive conditioned fish from now on. Which means that they have been out of the wild for at least three months and treated for anything that could happen so they are free of anything that could infect the others. Its more expensive this way but it works for me. Heres my tank now

 

[threebuoys]

I dose copper daily into my display. Since I run ozone, it gets depleted quickly (as seen by my ICP-MS results). It is an essential compound for photosynthesis, so I add a very small amount to keep it just barely detectible on an ICP-MS test (it should never be detected on an ICP-OES test).

For what purpose are you dosing copper daily and what product are you using?

 

[LPS Bum]

I've used it extensively in my QT tank, very seldomly in my FOWLR (twice in 15 years, when a parasite somehow got through my QT protocol) and never in my reef.

 

[Pacific North Reef]

I've used copper successfully years ago in the DT, it was a FOWLR tank and just starting out, LFS recommended it to me and have pretty much been a believer ever since. However I will now only use it in the QT tank.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Where is the QT only option?

Since my quarantine tank is still technically 'my tank' I said yes, but I agree with you and others - I use it in quarantine but not the display.

Copper is essentially an antibiotic. It's toxic to everything in high enough concentrations, just more toxic to things like cryptocaryon and oodinium making it a useful drug. If used properly.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Please clarify your dose/day and how you do this. I know the amount added is extremely tiny and when I read this I became curious about the process.
Also, someone trying to save a fish using copper might think your method could work for that, and nothing could be further from the truth in application than what you are doing and trying to cure a sick fish need to do, imo.

I didn't know running UV had these kinds of impacts upon the water contents. I guess I still have lots to learn. Thanks!

They are dosed at different therapeutic levels depending on product. Cupramine is .5 for 30 days whereas chelates form- coppersafe and copper power is at 2.25-2.5 (2.0 with scaleless/delicate fish) both for FULL 30 days and monitored by reliable test kit such as Hanna brand

 

[Delatedlotus]

I really do believe: and you will never be able to change my mind but... Copper takes the life expectance of the fish away so dramatically. In others words, it really shortens the life of the animal by and years, years. I believe it is no different then any cyanide caught fish by the actual diver's. But heck I have only had salty fingers for some 30 plus years either..... Never-ever will I use any copper of any kind at all, in any tank that I own ever! "I do leave that number to PETCO and there mentality to save all fish at ANY COST .." And very poor LTF's. It's about money,

 

[Almiti86]

I've had my FOWLR tank up for almost 4 years now. 2 years in I got velvet in my tank from a keyhole (tibecian) angel that wasn't eating much in my qt tank but looked fine so I put him in my display after 3 weeks in copper power in my 25gal qt tank. Well he wasn't eating well because he had velvet... Killed 7 of my fish but 3 chromis, my 2 clowns and a hearty healthy brown bristletooth tang survived. I put those 6 in my 25gal qt with copper power for 90 days while my display stayed fallow. Put them back in with no issues. Started getting more fish and running them through qt and eventually got ich in my display tank from a copperband butterfly that again looked fine but wasn't eating well, I said screw it and dosed copper power to my display. It worked, and my display now is definitely 100% ich and velvet free.

Something I should point out, my skunk and blood red shrimp couldn't be caught and they survived the copper power treatment with zero issues. I did remove all my snails while I was running copper in the display. I used seachem cuprisorb in a sock and a poly filter pad to remove the copper, it was all gone in a single day. I tested the tank every day for 7 days straight with the hanna copper checker after removing the cuprisorb and poly pad and it never creeped up or "leached" from the rocks or sand. Put my snails back in with zero issues. I believe chelated copper doesn't absorb into and rocks or sand.

 

[rd62rdstr]

I use it in my quarantine tank with every new fish. I first give them 2-3 days observance with general cure. I then add copper to a .50 level, next day to a 1.0 level and 2 days after that to a 2.0 level. I keep them at 2.0 doing 50% water changes every 3-4 days and redosing for the 50% change. This keeps my ammonia/nitrates down. I do have a seeded hob in use as well as a bubbler for added oxygen. After the 14 days, I do a 90% water change and let them rest 4-5 days before adding another dosage of general cure and prazi-pro. This has proven successful. My fish in display tank are super healthy, ambitious eaters with no ich or velvet. Having lost a whole tank of fish in the past to velvet, I wouldn’t do it any other way.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I really do believe: and you will never be able to change my mind but... Copper takes the life expectance of the fish away so dramatically. In others words, it really shortens the life of the animal by and years, years. I believe it is no different then any cyanide caught fish by the actual diver's. But heck I have only had salty fingers for some 30 plus years either..... Never-ever will I use any copper of any kind at all, in any tank that I own ever! "I do leave that number to PETCO and there mentality to save all fish at ANY COST .." And very poor LTF's. It's about money,

I'm curious - do you have any evidence or is it just a belief without any data? You say you've never used copper so you have no personal experience.

From Personal experience, cryptocaryon and oodinium take years and years off fish's life.

I'll also add that the Hanna checker has been a game changer in dosing copper - on can actually dose it accurately rather than trying to decipher shades of blue and giving it your best guess.

 

[jasonrusso]

I really do believe: and you will never be able to change my mind but... Copper takes the life expectance of the fish away so dramatically. In others words, it really shortens the life of the animal by and years, years. I believe it is no different then any cyanide caught fish by the actual diver's. But heck I have only had salty fingers for some 30 plus years either..... Never-ever will I use any copper of any kind at all, in any tank that I own ever! "I do leave that number to PETCO and there mentality to save all fish at ANY COST .." And very poor LTF's. It's about money,

I can't agree more!! People treat with copper and the fish live 5 years, and it's a success??

I'm curious - do you have any evidence or is it just a belief without any data? You say you've never used copper so you have no personal experience.

From Personal experience, cryptocaryon and oodinium take years and years off fish's life.

I'll also add that the Hanna checker has been a game changer in dosing copper - on can actually dose it accurately rather than trying to decipher shades of blue and giving it your best guess.

Show me a lionfish, eel, or puffer that has lived a long life after copper. It isn't a medication in my eyes. It's a treatment, but it's a trade off.


I personally HATE copper as I see it as a poison. It's a poison that you hope kills the parasite before it kills the fish. How can that be good for the fish??

I prefer Chloroquine Phosphate over copper. I have always had good results.

That being said, I think I am over the whole QT thing (I think stress kills more fish than we want to admit) and I have been dosing H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) with great results.

I recently bought 4 quarantined/copper treated fish. 3 died and none of the resident fish died. The QT'd fish got crypt and died, my resident cardinal fish got spots, but it was gone in a few days with the H2O2 dosing.

I say it all the time to other reefers, just because a fish isn't dead, it doesn't mean it is thriving. So your fish didn't die in the 28 days, it doesn't mean it's going to thrive for years.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I can't agree more!! People treat with copper and the fish live 5 years, and it's a success??

Show me a lionfish, eel, or puffer that has lived a long life after copper. It isn't a medication in my eyes. It's a treatment, but it's a trade off.


I personally HATE copper as I see it as a poison. It's a poison that you hope kills the parasite before it kills the fish. How can that be good for the fish??

I prefer Chloroquine Phosphate over copper. I have always had good results.

That being said, I think I am over the whole QT thing (I think stress kills more fish than we want to admit) and I have been dosing H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) with great results.

I recently bought 4 quarantined/copper treated fish. 3 died and none of the resident fish died. The QT'd fish got crypt and died, my resident cardinal fish got spots, but it was gone in a few days with the H2O2 dosing.

I say it all the time to other reefers, just because a fish isn't dead, it doesn't mean it is thriving. So your fish didn't die in the 28 days, it doesn't mean it's going to thrive for years.

You don’t think chloroquine phosphate is a poison? What about salt? If add too much salt the fish will die, too. Every medication is also a poison. Denying that is simply professing your ignorance.

I’ve never had a fish die from copper. I have several fish I treated over 5 years ago with copper and are still going strong. Clearly they’re on death’s door, though.

As far as QT being stressful, how are you measuring that? Everyone talks about ‘stress’ but every time I’ve kept a fish in quarantine it seems quite happy. It swims around and eats. Not sure what else a fish is supposed to do. Many years ago I lost all of my fish except for one due to velvet. I’ll consider death to be stressful.

 

[330Bob]

Oh Copper! Its good for a QT tank not a display. I paid a local company to ruin one of my tanks 17 years ago. 330 gallon 50"w x 50"tall x 31" 360 degree walk around. No one could build it but Brett (ATM) Acrylic Tank Manufacturing. He was like I'll build it 10 feet tall if you want. He wanted to film it for a TV show (later became a popular show called Tanked) its off the air now.

Anyway he did a great job on the acrylic work and I had a local aquarium store bring in the fish and do water changes. It was great for a few months till they added in some fish that had ich. It sort of took over the tank lost some fish. So their experts (not Brett) came out to look and said you need copper thats the only thing that will kill ich. (crypto)

So rather than catch all the fish and put in QT. They did take some but gave up as it was taking time to catch them all.

They decided to dump copper in my main display tank. Like that was a good idea. I was new so sure what ever you guys say. Well it did kill the ich but...
it also killed all the crabs, snails, live sand, sump etc.
and like 2 weeks or 4 (can't remember) the tank turned dark and fully of crazy LONG hair algae and green slime on the once white sand. The copper had made a nutrient storm that ruined the tank. Makes total sense to me now still don't know why they did not realize that would occur.

The fish they took out they sold and I never got a refund. Just a bill for the copper and catching the fish. And they used a old magnet for glass to clean (I had a new magnet for acrylic) they did not bother to use and scratch up the new tank.

It ruined all the live sand and took like a year to get the copper out with chemicals new sand etc. Ended up taking over a year to fix it. Ran it with fresh water in it with no fish for like 9 months to get it back were the copper would not kill inverts and to get the hair algae out. Was a nightmare.

Moral of story NEVER put copper in a display tank and so called experts don't always know whats best. If you want this done right have to do them yourself.

It almost made me quit

 

[jasonrusso]

I really do believe: and you will never be able to change my mind but... Copper takes the life expectance of the fish away so dramatically. In others words, it really shortens the life of the animal by and years, years. I believe it is no different then any cyanide caught fish by the actual diver's. But heck I have only had salty fingers for some 30 plus years either..... Never-ever will I use any copper of any kind at all, in any tank that I own ever! "I do leave that number to PETCO and there mentality to save all fish at ANY COST .." And very poor LTF's. It's about money,

I'm curious - do you have any evidence or is it just a belief without any data? You say you've never used copper so you have no personal experience.

From Personal experience, cryptocaryon and oodinium take years and years off fish's life.

I'll also add that the Hanna checker has been a game changer in dosing copper - on can actually dose it accurately rather than trying to decipher shades of blue and giving it your best guess.

You don’t think chloroquine phosphate is a poison? What about salt? If add too much salt the fish will die, too. Every medication is also a poison. Denying that is simply professing your ignorance.

I’ve never had a fish die from copper. I have several fish I treated over 5 years ago with copper and are still going strong. Clearly they’re on death’s door, though.

As far as QT being stressful, how are you measuring that? Everyone talks about ‘stress’ but every time I’ve kept a fish in quarantine it seems quite happy. It swims around and eats. Not sure what else a fish is supposed to do. Many years ago I lost all of my fish except for one due to velvet. I’ll consider death to be stressful.

Here we go. Someone else disagrees with you so they are clearly "ignorant."

I believe that there is a difference between a poison and a treatment. You don't? Chemotherapy is a poison, antibiotics aren't. Neither is good long term, but which one will get you first??

Wow, 5 years!! All those huge fish in the ocean are only 5 years old??

I've had fish hide all the time, not eat regularly, etc in qt. As soon as they are in the DT they come to life. Bare bottom with pvc "caves" isn't normal. They aren't happy. If you think so, there isn't anything else to say.

 

[330Bob]

So does a qt count as putting copper in my tank?
I’ve ran a qt with copper with mostly positive results, but I have never added copper to a display tank.

No idea, but to me it does not count unless its the display tank. I don't have an issue with people using copper. I know my local fish store uses it on many fish and I prefer it when I buy them so I don't get crypto in my display. I have fish from there that are from 2007 and still alive. It might not be good for the fish but its the lesser of two evils. I fear crypto more than copper.

Using it a display tank will kill things you dont want it to and create nutrients for algae. Def do not use if you have inverts.

 

[Chasmodes]

Yes, in a past FO fish DT. But not in my display DTs in the last 40 years. I use it extensively in my QT/Hospital tanks though, successfully.

 

[kenchilada]

I really do believe: and you will never be able to change my mind but... Copper takes the life expectance of the fish away so dramatically. In others words, it really shortens the life of the animal by and years, years. I believe it is no different then any cyanide caught fish by the actual diver's. But heck I have only had salty fingers for some 30 plus years either..... Never-ever will I use any copper of any kind at all, in any tank that I own ever! "I do leave that number to PETCO and there mentality to save all fish at ANY COST .." And very poor LTF's. It's about money,

Seems like a lot of science is based on belief these days, so I guess this checks out.

 

[MiniCoco]

This is a misleading question in my humble opinion. copper Power’s main use is for treatment in quarantine tank, not as a supplement in your display tank. If you reworded this question to include QT’s, the answers would be significantly different. Any bias here? One has to wonder.

 

[threebuoys]

Oh Copper! Its good for a QT tank not a display. I paid a local company to ruin one of my tanks 17 years ago. 330 gallon 50"w x 50"tall x 31" 360 degree walk around. No one could build it but Brett (ATM) Acrylic Tank Manufacturing. He was like I'll build it 10 feet tall if you want. He wanted to film it for a TV show (later became a popular show called Tanked) its off the air now.

Anyway he did a great job on the acrylic work and I had a local aquarium store bring in the fish and do water changes. It was great for a few months till they added in some fish that had ich. It sort of took over the tank lost some fish. So their experts (not Brett) came out to look and said you need copper thats the only thing that will kill ich. (crypto)

So rather than catch all the fish and put in QT. They did take some but gave up as it was taking time to catch them all.

They decided to dump copper in my main display tank. Like that was a good idea. I was new so sure what ever you guys say. Well it did kill the ich but...
it also killed all the crabs, snails, live sand, sump etc.
and like 2 weeks or 4 (can't remember) the tank turned dark and fully of crazy LONG hair algae and green slime on the once white sand. The copper had made a nutrient storm that ruined the tank. Makes total sense to me now still don't know why they did not realize that would occur.

The fish they took out they sold and I never got a refund. Just a bill for the copper and catching the fish. And they used a old magnet for glass to clean (I had a new magnet for acrylic) they did not bother to use and scratch up the new tank.

It ruined all the live sand and took like a year to get the copper out with chemicals new sand etc. Ended up taking over a year to fix it. Ran it with fresh water in it with no fish for like 9 months to get it back were the copper would not kill inverts and to get the hair algae out. Was a nightmare.

Moral of story NEVER put copper in a display tank and so called experts don't always know whats best. If you want this done right have to do them yourself.

It almost made me quit

Clearly a LFS team that had no clue what they were doing from start to finish. Feel for you. Sometimes it seems that all you have to do is work at a fish store and you are an expert Apologies to all the LFS teams who are genuinely dedicated to the profession.