Treating Ich - for specific fish make up

[Wunderboiy]

Hi All -

A couple weeks ago I noticed my blue tanga aquired ich, and from all my reading I am sure that the rest of the fish now have it so some extent. All fish are eating well, there is no aggression, and water quality is perfect so I should have some time to work with.

In the mean time I have enhanced diet & also treating w/ Focus & metroplex.

So now I am looking for the best way to approach the copper / hypo treatment for specific set of fish & if I will run into any issues (more likely with copper) in doing so.

Stock list - Blue Tang, Yellow Tang, Flame Angel, Melenarus Wrasse, Six Line Wrassee, Diamond Goby, Clownfish x2

Questions:

• Will any of these fish be severely in danger through the procedure? I have read blue tangs & wrasse can be sensitive to copper?
• I currently have a 20g tank on hand, will I be able to treat this many fish in a 20g for 72 days? Or do i need to find a 40g at least? (Tangs are still smaller at about 3 inches for blue & 3-4 for yellow)
• Should i continue to feed the display every few days during this time to keep all the bacteria alive?
• I threw some poly fill in the main tank sump 2 weeks ago to begin building bacteria - after 3-4 weeks should this be okay for biological filtration or do I need additional items?
• How often should I perform water changes in the QT?
• Would hyposalinity be the prefered method because I could run an oversized skimmer on the QT during the time?

I know i've thrown a lot out there, but from what I can see now I DO have time to work with, but would also like to erradicate the parasite from the fish / DT.

Appreciate thoughts

 

[leepink23]

Hi All -

A couple weeks ago I noticed my blue tanga aquired ich, and from all my reading I am sure that the rest of the fish now have it so some extent. All fish are eating well, there is no aggression, and water quality is perfect so I should have some time to work with.

In the mean time I have enhanced diet & also treating w/ Focus & metroplex.

So now I am looking for the best way to approach the copper / hypo treatment for specific set of fish & if I will run into any issues (more likely with copper) in doing so.

Stock list - Blue Tang, Yellow Tang, Flame Angel, Melenarus Wrasse, Six Line Wrassee, Diamond Goby, Clownfish x2

Questions:

• Will any of these fish be severely in danger through the procedure? I have read blue tangs & wrasse can be sensitive to copper?
• I currently have a 20g tank on hand, will I be able to treat this many fish in a 20g for 72 days? Or do i need to find a 40g at least? (Tangs are still smaller at about 3 inches for blue & 3-4 for yellow)
• Should i continue to feed the display every few days during this time to keep all the bacteria alive?
• I threw some poly fill in the main tank sump 2 weeks ago to begin building bacteria - after 3-4 weeks should this be okay for biological filtration or do I need additional items?
• How often should I perform water changes in the QT?
• Would hyposalinity be the prefered method because I could run an oversized skimmer on the QT during the time?

I know i've thrown a lot out there, but from what I can see now I DO have time to work with, but would also like to erradicate the parasite from the fish / DT.

Appreciate thoughts

Get a seachem ammonia detector for the qt, its cheap and effective. My yellow tang and hippo tang got aggressive with each other in a 55 after about 5-6 weeks. I changed 10 gallons a week at the least. Remember to add copper to the new water. I fed my display the last 2 weeks and that seemed to work fine.

 

[Smo]

For this combination of fish you might consider tank transfer method (TTM). Read the QT and TTM stickies within this forum. You could use multiple buckets from the big box stores to separate the more aggressive fish or plastic storage containers. +1 on the Seachem ammonia detectors. Have one for each container but only soak in RODI water and then let dry to disinfect.
Then, I would think you want at least a 40 G breader as a holding tank (HT) for the remainder of the 76 day DT fallow period. Be sure to have good filtration and aeration.
Hypo salinity may not be successful as there are ICK strains that can survive a salinity level below what the fish can tolerate. TTM done correctly is nearly 100% effective at eradicating ICK from fish. Pay particular attention to avoid cross-contamination.

 

[aykwm]

Hi All -
Questions:

• Will any of these fish be severely in danger through the procedure? I have read blue tangs & wrasse can be sensitive to copper?
• I currently have a 20g tank on hand, will I be able to treat this many fish in a 20g for 72 days? Or do i need to find a 40g at least? (Tangs are still smaller at about 3 inches for blue & 3-4 for yellow)
• Should i continue to feed the display every few days during this time to keep all the bacteria alive?
• I threw some poly fill in the main tank sump 2 weeks ago to begin building bacteria - after 3-4 weeks should this be okay for biological filtration or do I need additional items?
• How often should I perform water changes in the QT?
• Would hyposalinity be the prefered method because I could run an oversized skimmer on the QT during the time?

I know i've thrown a lot out there, but from what I can see now I DO have time to work with, but would also like to erradicate the parasite from the fish / DT.

Appreciate thoughts

Welcome to Reef2Reef. It is good to see you performing Ich eradication instead of management. Hopefully it will be seamless.

• All the fish you mentioned can be cured with copper. Be careful ramping up the copper slowly. I would worry about the angelfish the most. I think you mistaken Copper with Chloroquine Phosphate (CP).
• I believe 20 gallons is too small for that long, the bigger the better. Even if tangs are still few inches big, they still need a lot of space as they go back and forth through the tank, a smaller tank might add unnecessary stress and aggression. You want to go fallow for 76 days instead of 72 days.
• Yes, spot (or ghost) feeding to keep some nutrients in the tank, which will keep the bacteria active.
• Make sure you have enough oxygen and circulation as medication will deplete the oxygen in water, an air stone or a small pump will get the job done.
• If you choose to go copper way then you need to dose copper until you reach therapeutical level (using recommended test kits), then proceed to doing water changes as usual or when ammonia is detected. Make sure to use seachem ammonia alert badge as normal ammonia test kits will give false results, also never use ammonia reducers with copper, they will release ionic copper in high rates which will be toxic to fish. When doing WC, measure the new water needed, add the copper to it and ensure that its at he correct level (match the tank level) and then add to the tank, basically you need to mix copper before adding the new water to it to ensure that the tank is always at therapeutical level.
• Unfortunately, strains of ich has been found to live in salinity levels so low that it will kill the fish before killing it, the only proven method to cure ich currently is copper and CP. Although hyposalinity might work, if you have these strains it will not be effective and fish will get reinfected.

If you still have any more questions or you need more clarification you are most welcome to ask.
Best of luck with the treatment

 

[ngoodermuth]

^right, wrasses and hippo tangs are sensitive to CP and should be treated with Copper. Many recommend chelated copper (like Coppersafe) because it is easier on the fish, especially for sensitive fish like wrasses. I use cupramine without issues. Just make sure you have the correct test kit for whichever you choose.

Good, luck- I hope you can pull off a full recovery! I recently finished my own fallow period, it can be a pain but certainly doable...and definitely worth it IMO

 

[TomJon]

I have went through your almost exact situation.

If one fish has it, your whole tank is exposed. There is a lot of information out there on life cycle of ich. On of the mistakes i made was misdiagnosing ich for velvet. Be sure you know what you have as i thought i had more time then i did and woke up to 3 dead fish. As far as the 20g for QT for your list, i did it. It sucks as you have to change the water a lot, and in doing so take the good bacteria out. It was hard to get a cycle on it. I would grab a bottle of good bacteria from your LFS or amazon and use about 2-3 capfuls a day. That will work for your short game. If you can, i would bump up to a 40g breeder and put fish in it as they come outr of the copper and do a FW dip when they go form copper to the new Sterile QT. I would also freshwater dip any fish with visible signs before going into QT. I highly recommend Cupermine. I use it with great success, just make sure to follow the instructions and have the copper test kit. I kept mine at about 0.5-0.6 for about 2 weeks and had great success. Your tank will have to sit empty for 8 weeks to ensure all are dead. If you dont have coral you can up the temp to 86 or so to speed the life cycle of the bugs.

on a side note, once you hit the 0.5 to 0.6 copper level be sure to bring the new water for water change up to the same level before adding it. adding new water then add the meds directly to the tank causes large fluctuations in the copper lv and cause more stress to the fish. Once you use copper in a system, those parts cannot be reused in a DT ever, so make sure they are parts you can leave as QT stuff for ever. If you have anymore questions about my experience with this let me know.

 

[Wunderboiy]

Appreciate all the replies, very helpful

 

[Wunderboiy]

Also, curious on thoughts of removing the corals and inverts into a separate tank and running hypo in the DT?

Edit - maybe not even worth trying per comments above around ineffectiveness of hypo

 

[Smo]

And the fact ICH trofonts will likely be on the skeletal structure of your corals and inverts too as well as rocks and tank glass.

 

[Wunderboiy]

So my plan is to treat with cuperamine.

Question - can I treat 2-3 fish at a time in the copper & then move them to a separate holding tank after the 14 day treatment? Thought being is it will be easier to control ammonia & I can better monitor fish / reduce stress?

Understanding that the fallow period in the tank will not begin until the final fish has been removed?

 

[TomJon]

So my plan is to treat with cuperamine.

Question - can I treat 2-3 fish at a time in the copper & then move them to a separate holding tank after the 14 day treatment? Thought being is it will be easier to control ammonia & I can better monitor fish / reduce stress?

Understanding that the fallow period in the tank will not begin until the final fish has been removed?

Yes you can treat as many as you want at one time assuming the filtration is adequate.

That's the way I do it. They run the course with the copper and then into re dip for 3 to 4 minutes just to make sure. Then directly into clean tank for observation. This method has always worked for me.

 

[Wunderboiy]

Also, I have some polyfill that has been sitting in DT sump to help build bacteria on it. Is there any problem to use an item such as this in an HOB filter during this process? It won't pull out copper would it? Since it is not chemical.

 

[Wunderboiy]

Yes you can treat as many as you want at one time assuming the filtration is adequate.

That's the way I do it. They run the course with the copper and then into re dip for 3 to 4 minutes just to make sure. Then directly into clean tank for observation. This method has always worked for me.

And when you say "re-dip" I assume you are referring to FW dip?

 

[Smo]

So my plan is to treat with cuperamine.

Question - can I treat 2-3 fish at a time in the copper & then move them to a separate holding tank after the 14 day treatment? Thought being is it will be easier to control ammonia & I can better monitor fish / reduce stress?

Understanding that the fallow period in the tank will not begin until the final fish has been removed?

In theory, you may be able to do this but it is fraught with risk--especially if you are not experienced. Will all three tanks be at least 10' apart to prevent aerosol transmission? You'll need separate utensils for all three tanks, including washing and drying your hands after working in each tank. Also, you need to ramp up the Cu over several days before you get to a therapeutic level especially for your more sensitive fish. This will further delay treatment for some of your fish. Finally, if you only treat in a therapeutic Cu level for 14 days you have to be certain it never drops below that therapeutic level or the fish risk becoming unprotected and the cycle will continue.
And yes--76 days of fallow from when the last fish is removed from the DT.
PetCo currently has a $1/Gal tank sale going on. Why not take advantage of it? The larger the QT you use the more stable the water parameters will be.
Suggest you read they the QT and treatment stickies for greater detail and then decide your path forward.

 

[Wunderboiy]

Makes sense, I have read the stickies. The $ / gallon may prove a good option to get a 40 gallon which would hopefully be enough to handle this quantity of fish

 

[Wunderboiy]

Also any personal experiences around if the wrasses / diamond goby will be okay without sand for the 76 days?

 

[Smo]

Also any personal experiences around if the wrasses / diamond goby will be okay without sand for the 76 days?

The diamond goby will be fine, but you will have to target feed him to keep him nourished. They are slow eaters compared to your other fish. For the wrasse, you can place a small glass baking dish of sand in the QT for him to sleep in. A small amount of sand will have little impact on the meds. This worked well for me. Be sure to pitch the sand after the treatment.

 

[Humblefish]

^^ Good advice given by @Smo

 

[Wunderboiy]

Thanks again for all the feedback guys. So for now the plan is to qt in a 40 gallon breeder and use coppersafe.

Question around equipment and contamination, will heaters / Powerheads be banned from the main tank after a treatment or can they be cleaned?

Also is there a sticky someone can point me to around treating with coppersafe and the appropriate therapeutic level?

 

[Humblefish]

Question around equipment and contamination, will heaters / Powerheads be banned from the main tank after a treatment or can they be cleaned?

They can be reused in the DT, but clean with vinegar and allow to air dry thoroughly beforehand.

Also is there a sticky someone can point me to around treating with coppersafe and the appropriate therapeutic level?

Coppersafe is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.

More info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/