Treatment Input Needed

[PeteFranc]

Hey all,

I've been in the hobby a long time, but fortunately I haven't had to treat sick fish for over a decade. With that being said, I made the mistake of not doing a QT on 2 turbo snails and my established tank got a case of ich. I was really surprised by this and I've learned my lesson now to QT inverts & coral. I have a 65 gallon reef with a pair of mated clowns, a royal gramma, and a diamond goby. The goby and clowns are currently still eating and appear to be clear of the parasite (for now). I noticed the outbreak initially just over 2 weeks ago.

My royal gramma got hit with ich hard and banged his body up pretty good (scratching) before I could transfer him to a hospital tank. I'm currently treating him with copper power and monitoring the levels closely, but my question is this, do I also attempt to treat for a secondary infection too? I know mixing meds is generally not wise, but I'm concerned he/she may not be able to fight off this infection without them?

Any input is greatly appreciated. My QT tank is only a 10 gallon, so I'm not looking to move the other fish in yet until my gramma either improves or passes. I don't want to add any additional stress to the gramma, it's currently hanging tough inside a rock.

Moving forward I plan to either treat the display with Polyp Lab (thoughts)? I'm also fine to attempt treating all 4 fish in my 10 gallon or look into a 20 gallon long. All 4 fish have been together a long time and show no signs of aggression.

Thanks a lot for any input!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

My first question is - how sure are you of your diagnosis? The diagnosis pretty much drives everything from this point, and I’d hate to go down the wrong path. The scratching is more a symptom of flukes. The fish could have both ich and flukes though.
Can you post a picture of the gramma?
Jay

 

[PeteFranc]

Hey Jay, thanks! I'll update my profile shortly also.

I'm pretty certain on my diagnosis, I noticed white specs covering his fins and portions of his body. They then went away and I was hoping with heavy feeding he would fight off the next wave. I noticed a few white specs on the clowns initially, but haven't seen any new spots for over a week. The gramma got hit with the white spots again several days ago and I saw him scratching rocks the night before I was able to transfer him.

The goby is tough to tell, his fins are clear, but I've occasionally seen him scratch his underside against the sand, not sure if he's looking to stir up food or has a few on his body that I can't see.

As far as a photo goes, I can try my best. At the moment he's staying in a rock and I'm not seeing as many white spots on his fins/body. He is paler in color with white scrapes on his body. Several scales are sticking out, can't tell if it's a case of dropsy, they are more isolated. Breathing was heavier initially with an open mouth. His breathing has since slowed some and he seems calmer inside his rock.

Getting a photo at the moment was difficult, I could possibly move the rock tomorrow to get him in the open a bit. Didn't want to stir him tonight though.

Thanks for the input.

Also want to add I transferred the rock with him to the hospital tank because it's been his home for years

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey Jay, thanks! I'll update my profile shortly also.

I'm pretty certain on my diagnosis, I noticed white specs covering his fins and portions of his body. They then went away and I was hoping with heavy feeding he would fight off the next wave. I noticed a few white specs on the clowns initially, but haven't seen any new spots for over a week. The gramma got hit with the white spots again several days ago and I saw him scratching rocks the night before I was able to transfer him.

The goby is tough to tell, his fins are clear, but I've occasionally seen him scratch his underside against the sand, not sure if he's looking to stir up food or has a few on his body that I can't see.

As far as a photo goes, I can try my best. At the moment he's staying in a rock and I'm not seeing as many white spots on his fins/body. He is paler in color with white scrapes on his body. Several scales are sticking out, can't tell if it's a case of dropsy, they are more isolated. Breathing was heavier initially with an open mouth. His breathing has since slowed some and he seems calmer inside his rock.

Getting a photo at the moment was difficult, I could possibly move the rock tomorrow to get him in the open a bit. Didn't want to stir him tonight though.

Thanks for the input.

Also want to add I transferred the rock with him to the hospital tank because it's been his home for years

Tough to see, but the sort of "ratty" appearance can be from physical damage, but also from fluke damage. You can treat your display with Prazipro if you increase the aeration, most corals tolerate that well.

Polyp Lab Medic is a peroxide salt. Some people have reported it worked for them, others, not so much. Peroxides do have a place in treating external fish diseases, but my worry is that this product, since it is "reef safe" isn't the correct formulation to manage fish diseases. Most people use hydrogen peroxide as a dip for Amyloodinium.

Jay

 

[PeteFranc]

Tough to see, but the sort of "ratty" appearance can be from physical damage, but also from fluke damage. You can treat your display with Prazipro if you increase the aeration, most corals tolerate that well.

Polyp Lab Medic is a peroxide salt. Some people have reported it worked for them, others, not so much. Peroxides do have a place in treating external fish diseases, but my worry is that this product, since it is "reef safe" isn't the correct formulation to manage fish diseases. Most people use hydrogen peroxide as a dip for Amyloodinium.

Jay

Hey Jay,

Appreciate the input. Here are two more photos, still difficult to capture clearly, but let me know your thoughts if you see this please.

*Edit*

Attached one more photo to show some of scrapes on his body. Something somewhat encouraging is I just dropped in a sinking garlic pellet and he actually swam out of his rock at it, he took it in his mouth, but spit it out a second later. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[PeteFranc]

Sorry for the double post all, but here are the best photos yet. He's been in QT for nearly 4 days now and I've slowly been increasing the copper power. I've been erroring on the lower side so far, but it's discouraging seeing the white spots (assuming ich) still on his body, unless these are new clusters already? Either way, appreciate feedback on how to try to save this little guy.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry for the double post all, but here are the best photos yet. He's been in QT for nearly 4 days now and I've slowly been increasing the copper power. I've been erroring on the lower side so far, but it's discouraging seeing the white spots (assuming ich) still on his body, unless these are new clusters already? Either way, appreciate feedback on how to try to save this little guy.

So - the fish still has marine ich, Cryptocaryon. It may have flukes as well. You need to get your copper up to a full dose tonight, no dilly dallying!

Regarding the dislodge scales - could any of the other fish have attacked it? If not, then there is probably a fluke issue as well. For flukes, you would treat with Prazipro. I hate hitting a fish with copper and prazi, but in this case, you might need to try that. I'm also worried about the remaining fish in your DT - they could have the same issues, just not showing symptoms yet.

Jay

 

[PeteFranc]

So - the fish still has marine ich, Cryptocaryon. It may have flukes as well. You need to get your copper up to a full dose tonight, no dilly dallying!

Regarding the dislodge scales - could any of the other fish have attacked it? If not, then there is probably a fluke issue as well. For flukes, you would treat with Prazipro. I hate hitting a fish with copper and prazi, but in this case, you might need to try that. I'm also worried about the remaining fish in your DT - they could have the same issues, just not showing symptoms yet.

Jay

Thanks for confirming Jay. Noted on the copper dose, I'm at 12 total ML now for roughly 9 gallons of water. I'm still not hitting 2.0 on my API test kit, but it's also not the easiest to read. Really wish I had a hannah for copper. I'm going to call my LFS tomorrow to see if they carry any or could just test my water if I bring some down. I'm wondering if the rock I put in there is absorbing a decent amount of the copper power.

What target range should I aim for with the copper power? I know the bottle reads 2.5 and I just finished reading another thread on here stating 2.0-2.25.

I'll put an order in for the Prazi, I have a bottle currently, but it expired several years ago.

As far as the mated clowns and goby, they are still eating and look much better currently. I'm leaning towards giving them a QT treatment too though. I'm kind of waiting to see if the gramma makes a turn for the better first though before crowding them in there also. I can look into a larger QT tank if needed.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for confirming Jay. Noted on the copper dose, I'm at 12 total ML now for roughly 9 gallons of water. I'm still not hitting 2.0 on my API test kit, but it's also not the easiest to read. Really wish I had a hannah for copper. I'm going to call my LFS tomorrow to see if they carry any or could just test my water if I bring some down. I'm wondering if the rock I put in there is absorbing a decent amount of the copper power.

What target range should I aim for with the copper power? I know the bottle reads 2.5 and I just finished reading another thread on here stating 2.0-2.25.

I'll put an order in for the Prazi, I have a bottle currently, but it expired several years ago.

As far as the mated clowns and goby, they are still eating and look much better currently. I'm leaning towards giving them a QT treatment too though. I'm kind of waiting to see if the gramma makes a turn for the better first though before crowding them in there also. I can look into a larger QT tank if needed.

Yes, don’t use expired Prazipro. One trick for copper tests is - if you need to do a water change, make up five gallons of new seawater, and the exact amount of copper and test that. Take a picture of the test tube over white paper and use that color to tell you what a full dose looks like.
Jay

 

[PeteFranc]

Yes, don’t use expired Prazipro. One trick for copper tests is - if you need to do a water change, make up five gallons of new seawater, and the exact amount of copper and test that. Take a picture of the test tube over white paper and use that color to tell you what a full dose looks like.
Jay

Thanks for the continued input. Bought some Prazi at the LFS today and will look into treating all fish. Would you recommend I monitor the display fish (mated clowns/goby) for ich first and make sure I don't need to do a copper treatment with them in QT first? The clowns and goby are eating well, the clowns eyes have been clouding some off and on. Any thoughts on this? One of them currently has a white spec on his eye, looks to be ich but is also a little larger?

I increased the dosage on copper power last night in the QT. Thanks for the paper tip, I tried this and still felt uneasy, so I took some water to the LFS to use with their Hanna unit and my reading was still surprisingly low (1.29). They didn't have any hanna's in stock, but I'm ordering one now. I had roughly 14ml in the 9 gallons for that reading. I'll feel a lot better when it arrives. I've already added 3 more ML to my QT since that reading and plan to add 2 ML more here shortly. That'll give me a total of 19ml for the 9 gallons.

I'll play around with a calculator online and see where that puts me. Thanks for your help. The gramma ate 3 pellets this evening actually, couldn't believe it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That is a judgement call whether to go with Prazi or copper first. Prazi has its strongest effect in the first 36 hours, so I think you could dose that, and then if the fish break with ich, move them and treat with copper, resolve the ich, and then go back and dose with prazi two more times, a week apart.

Jay

 

[PeteFranc]

That is a judgement call whether to go with Prazi or copper first. Prazi has its strongest effect in the first 36 hours, so I think you could dose that, and then if the fish break with ich, move them and treat with copper, resolve the ich, and then go back and dose with prazi two more times, a week apart.

Jay

Just wanted to provide an update to anyone out there who stumbles across this looking to fight ich. The gramma is doing great! My Hanna copper checker came and I've been maintaining copper levels at 2. I haven't seen any ich on him for nearly 2 weeks and he's eating well. The damage to his scales/body has also continued healing well with no additional meds, just clean water + copper power.

I've been monitoring my display tank and the clowns and goby are showing no further signs of ich damage. I'm going to treat with Polyp Lab Medic for the full recommended cycle exactly has the instructions say. I'm hoping this will rid any remaining ich in my display before reintroducing the gramma.

In summary,

Copper Power worked for me but I highly recommend a Hanna checker for peace of mind if you can afford it. I started with the API test kit and had a difficult time maintaining 2.0 - 2.25.

If anything changes I'll update this thread. Thanks for the input, Jay!