Tropic Marin All-For-Reef clogging tubing

[biom]

It does appear that way. I think its a result of the solution "crystalizing" in the tube. I've been searching all day and it appears that this is quite common despite some never having an issue after years of use. Quite strange. If I cant solve this in the next week or so, I think I'm going to go back to hand dosing and consider my options.

That is very strange. I'm dosing pure DIY version, not TM's but mine with maximum possible concentrations of calcium formate. Never had such precipitation. If the product is super concentrated some crystallization is possible if the temperatures are very low, which I doubt is your case.
If the outlet is close or touching the water some buildup of calcium carbonate will appear in time, but it is only on the tube opening.
During crystallization of the calcium formate no gases will be generated! If there are gas bubbles and there is no air leak there is chemical reaction happening presumably with a base forming calcium carbonate, formate and carbon dioxide. But in this case precipitation of the calcium carbonate will happen in the container/bottle also and will form kind of Coral Snow precipitate - like fine white "mud" not big crystals and all the solution will appear cloudy.

This is very helpful. Wouldn't want to ruin the solution.

There is no problem to dilute the solution. The mold will appear in concentrated solution also if is not sterilized properly or if there are no preservatives added. I did several experiments when I've tried to commercialize the product with various ways of preventing the fungus forming with mixed result (sometimes funny).
But for the test you can dilute only small part of the bottle say amount needed for one week and to see if crystallization still occur. Just use RO/DI water for dilution even small residue of alkalinity will precipitate calcium carbonate. And boil the water in microwave before dilution.
If crystallization occur only in tubing, then replace tubing, but not just with new one but with other type/brand, just to be sure it is not material of the tube causing precipitation of carbonate.
Sorry quite a long writing, hope it helps

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is very helpful. Wouldn't want to ruin the solution. Do you think that they mean directly above or below the waterline? I know it says "at" but I'm trying to surmise whether slightly below makes sense since it wont let air in and would seem to be best for avoiding "drops"

I think the implication is that the tubing and end opening does not touch the water, s no fluid migrates up, but that a drop at the tip will touch the water and be pulled away as it merges with the tank water surface.

 

[Adrian Em]

That is very strange. I'm dosing pure DIY version, not TM's but mine with maximum possible concentrations of calcium formate. Never had such precipitation. If the product is super concentrated some crystallization is possible if the temperatures are very low, which I doubt is your case.
If the outlet is close or touching the water some buildup of calcium carbonate will appear in time, but it is only on the tube opening.
During crystallization of the calcium formate no gases will be generated! If there are gas bubbles and there is no air leak there is chemical reaction happening presumably with a base forming calcium carbonate, formate and carbon dioxide. But in this case precipitation of the calcium carbonate will happen in the container/bottle also and will form kind of Coral Snow precipitate - like fine white "mud" not big crystals and all the solution will appear cloudy.


There is no problem to dilute the solution. The mold will appear in concentrated solution also if is not sterilized properly or if there are no preservatives added. I did several experiments when I've tried to commercialize the product with various ways of preventing the fungus forming with mixed result (sometimes funny).
But for the test you can dilute only small part of the bottle say amount needed for one week and to see if crystallization still occur. Just use RO/DI water for dilution even small residue of alkalinity will precipitate calcium carbonate. And boil the water in microwave before dilution.
If crystallization occur only in tubing, then replace tubing, but not just with new one but with other type/brand, just to be sure it is not material of the tube causing precipitation of carbonate.
Sorry quite a long writing, hope it helps

Thanks for the help. I am using a silicone type tubing and I'm thinking about trying vinyl/plastic to see if anything changes.

 

[Adrian Em]

Hello all,

Just wanted to take the time to update this post. I received a lot of tips and valuable guidance from the community and I'm sure someone else will come along with a similar issue.

I ended up switching from the silicone type of tubing to a more rigid vinyl/plastic type of tubing and it been a week so far with no incidents of clogging. I don't want to jump to any conclusions this early but its looking promising. It seems like there was some kind of chemical reaction between the AFR and the softer (silicone/rubbery) tubing causing the solution to harden and block almost the entire length of tubing.

 

[jhadaway]

Ive only had issues on the tip. I moved away from the water line a little and placed the line few inches inside another larger tube to prevent any crimping. I also dosed small amounts 7 times a day 1 minute each. I also dissolve the powder in hot water until clear.

 

[biom]

Hello all,

Just wanted to take the time to update this post. I received a lot of tips and valuable guidance from the community and I'm sure someone else will come along with a similar issue.

I ended up switching from the silicone type of tubing to a more rigid vinyl/plastic type of tubing and it been a week so far with no incidents of clogging. I don't want to jump to any conclusions this early but its looking promising. It seems like there was some kind of chemical reaction between the AFR and the softer (silicone/rubbery) tubing causing the solution to harden and block almost the entire length of tubing.

Thanks for the update.

 

[jhadaway]

Hello all,

Just wanted to take the time to update this post. I received a lot of tips and valuable guidance from the community and I'm sure someone else will come along with a similar issue.

I ended up switching from the silicone type of tubing to a more rigid vinyl/plastic type of tubing and it been a week so far with no incidents of clogging. I don't want to jump to any conclusions this early but its looking promising. It seems like there was some kind of chemical reaction between the AFR and the softer (silicone/rubbery) tubing causing the solution to harden and block almost the entire length of tubing.

I use a very thin silicon tube and haven't seen this but I will keep my eyes open now, Good luck with the AFR, I love the stuff.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hello guys. Just recently started dosing since I finally have enough corals to noticeably decrease my alkalinity on a day-to-day basis. Started with 2 part and then switched to AFR. Was dosing by hand initially, but then decided to setup a dosing pump. There seems to be hard crystals forming in the tube that causes blockages impeding the flow. Does anyone have any experience with this? What did you do to resolve it? I’ve changed the tubing twice now with the same results.

I'm certain I saw a post from Hans, where he stated this can happen due to the concentrated nature of the solution.

His suggested solution was to place the tube outlet in a position so that the ATO top up washes the end of the tubing.

He also stated that the solution should not be diluted as it can result in organic growth in the solution reservoir.,

 

[TheBear78]

I use Reef Zlements KH buffer dosed via a Red Sea Reefdose.
After a few weeks of dosing I noticed a similar build up of deposits near the discharge which is approximately 2 inches above the water level. A few weeks later my Alk dropped and after a bit of diagnosis it was apparent that the fluid wasn't coming through.
I removed the tube and bottle (I feed mine directly from the bottle) and I was surprised to feel crystals within the tubing at the bottle end and a several inches above. After clearing it out I noticed a layer of loose crystals in the bottom of the bottle aswell.
I did wonder if some contamination had occurred but I've seen the same crystals in unopened bottles too...
Since then I've kept an eye on it there have been no further problems. Certainly one to watch out for with this product.

 

[Adrian Em]

I'm certain I saw a post from Hans, where he stated this can happen due to the concentrated nature of the solution.

His suggested solution was to place the tube outlet in a position so that the ATO top up washes the end of the tubing.

He also stated that the solution should not be diluted as it can result in organic growth in the solution reservoir.,

You are correct. Someone pointed that out earlier. In this case (and from what others have experienced) the ATO trick wouldn't solve the problem. After further investigation, all of the tubing was clogged. the solution crystalized in the tubing from the reservoir to the doser and from the doser to the sump. This was a 100% blockage. Based on what I've observed so far, its best to stick with a vinyl/plastic type of tubing. If i start getting crystallization on the end, then maybe I'll try the ATO trick. For now, there are no signs of any hardening/build-up since changing the tubing.

 

[TheBear78]

Before anyone replaces their silicone tubes, my blockages occurred with Red Sea tubes which are TPE (thermoplastic elastomer).
For so few to have had this issue I do wonder if it's just bad luck with a bad batch. I don't think there's enough data to confirm a cause.

 

[Bramzor]

Before anyone replaces their silicone tubes, my blockages occurred with Red Sea tubes which are TPE (thermoplastic elastomer).
For so few to have had this issue I do wonder if it's just bad luck with a bad batch. I don't think there's enough data to confirm a cause.

I’ve had the same issue 4 years ago so do not think it’s batch related. I’m using a 1mm inner silicone dosing line (so the smallest you can imagine) because I only need to dose a small amount (nano tank) and having a smaller inner tube allows me to dose a longer distance but this did not help. I did read marketing material of Neptune DOS that the bigger tubes would have less build up so maybe the problem is just the tiny dosing tubes and solution could be to use a bigger size? Anyone else having a build up inside wider lines? Or is it a problem with evaporation that the liquid becomes even more concentrated?

 

[Bramzor]

I was wondering, what is the distance of tubing that you guys have? Because instead of knowing the amount of ml that you are dosing, I think it's more important to know how many days it takes for it to get from the bottle and end up into the sump. If the tube in itself can hold 15x the amount that you are actually dosing, it will take 15 days for it to get through the tubes and it would have 15 days to solidify.

Thinking about drilling some holes in the stand so I can have it right next to the sump area and would be able to dose it using only a few inches of tubing. Since I only need a few ml anyway as I have a nano tank and there go many ml of liquid inside each feat. I'll also check how many ml will go into 1 feet of tubing.

This was easy. In my case with a 1mm ID (normal dosing lines are like 2-6mm ID which will keep a lot more liquid per feet) I get 1ml in 1 feet (30cm) of tubing. So if I can stay below 1 feet of tubing, it would flush every single day. Or if I dose 3ml, I could do 3 feet but shorter is probably better. If you keep an exact length it seems that you could even flush out the lines after dosing, for example if you dose liquid foods. All you need to do is flush the tube after dosing. So lines are filled with for example few ml of RO (which you can calculate). When you dose for example x ml, after dosing you can flush the lines with a second dose head and flush xx amount, enough to flush the whole line 2x for example. And the flush will actually move the liquid out and replace it with RO.

Not sure if I would use this flush out method for AFR unless I would have really long tubes and have issues with crystals inside the tubes regularly.

Expect that there wouldn’t be any issues with short tubing right? Previously I had like 5 feet of tubing which held 2 days of dosing.

 

[TheBear78]

I was wondering, what is the distance of tubing that you guys have?

No idea on exact length, probably 4 or 5 feet as a guess. One thing against this theory is that my blockages were more serious at the bottle end.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One thing against this theory is that my blockages were more serious at the bottle end.

But no solids in the bottle itself?

 

[TheBear78]

But no solids in the bottle itself?

Beforehand, unknown.
Afterwards, some.

In the bottle were small crystals but the tube felt like the core had solidified. To clear it, it felt like snapping glow sticks, if you know what I mean.
I haven't seen this issue since so it's very difficult to confirm a cause.

 

[Kasrift]

I just dilute 1:1 with water and double the dose. Increases resolution and removes the stalagtites.

100% agree with this. Also, whenever you refill your reservoir, I just run water through it back into a bucket 1000ml one time so I can clear the tubing.

As for mixing All For Reef, I always microwave the RO water to get it warm before mixing on a magnetic stirrer, mixes much better that way.

 

[Adrian Em]

Beforehand, unknown.
Afterwards, some.

In the bottle were small crystals but the tube felt like the core had solidified. To clear it, it felt like snapping glow sticks, if you know what I mean.
I haven't seen this issue since so it's very difficult to confirm a cause.

This was my exact experience, except for crystals in the dosing reservoir. The solution was crystalized in the entire length of tubing from container to pump and from pump to the outlet of the dosing line. It felt exactly like trying to break glow sticks.

The extent of the clogging was so bad that the tubes had to be discarded. I was unable to clear them by blowing into either end. Complete blockage.

The good news is that since switching to a tube made of a different material, I haven't seen any buildup inside or at the tip of the tube. Everything is completely clear and dosing properly as expected.

 

[Jers_Reef]

Hello all,

Just wanted to take the time to update this post. I received a lot of tips and valuable guidance from the community and I'm sure someone else will come along with a similar issue.

I ended up switching from the silicone type of tubing to a more rigid vinyl/plastic type of tubing and it been a week so far with no incidents of clogging. I don't want to jump to any conclusions this early but its looking promising. It seems like there was some kind of chemical reaction between the AFR and the softer (silicone/rubbery) tubing causing the solution to harden and block almost the entire length of tubing.

I just experienced this same thing with tubing that comes with the Kamoer X1 dosing pump. Few corals started looking sad and realized my Ca was way low (fell 425 to 290! Yikes). Replaced this evening with a similar length extra silicone line I had on hand that I use for drip acclimation. Seems I may need to swap it out! Thanks for sharing.

Before I blame the line, is it possible my practice of 50% RODI dilution didn’t cause the precipitation??? I thought I read this would be ok, but that line had a ton of crap accumulated and my mason jar glass is way beyond frosted over. I did it b/c my small tank 24g only needs 7.5mL/day to maintain, and from what I read about dosing accuracy I think I’d rather dose 3x5mL than a greater number @ smaller less accurate amount. Perhaps this is not a good strategy. Sure seems counter productive now that my line clogged and flow stopped completely (not exactly accurate dosing!).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just experienced this same thing with tubing that comes with the Kamoer X1 dosing pump. Few corals started looking sad and realized my Ca was way low (fell 425 to 290! Yikes). Replaced this evening with a similar length extra silicone line I had on hand that I use for drip acclimation. Seems I may need to swap it out! Thanks for sharing.

Before I blame the line, is it possible my practice of 50% RODI dilution didn’t cause the precipitation??? I thought I read this would be ok, but that line had a ton of crap accumulated and my mason jar glass is way beyond frosted over. I did it b/c my small tank 24g only needs 7.5mL/day to maintain, and from what I read about dosing accuracy I think I’d rather dose 3x5mL than a greater number @ smaller less accurate amount. Perhaps this is not a good strategy. Sure seems counter productive now that my line clogged and flow stopped completely (not exactly accurate dosing!).

FWIW, I don’t see a mechanism for calcium to drop 135 ppm by not dosing AFR unless alk dropped by 19 dKH, which seems very unlikely unless you were also dosing other alk sources.