Tropic Marin All-For-Reef Q's and Worries

MaxxuM

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I've been dosing my 5g with 2-part for the last month and it's pretty steady at 0.4 dKH loss per day. So, I dose Fusion 1&2 nightly but I'm worried that doing it all at once is stressing. Plus sometimes I forget. So I'm trying All-For-Reef and got a pump. Problem is not much is happening and I'm dropping alk. I usually run around 8.3-8.5 and now I'm at 7.6 and will probably be 7.4 tonight. TM recommends a staring dose of 0.85 for 4.5g (I did the math), but after 72hrs I'm still dropping.

First question, should I dose 2-part to try to hold alk steady @ 7.8dKH or will doing so slingshot my levels once there is enough bacteria to break down the AFR?

Second question, how long does it take AFR to actually start working?

Third question, TM says the max I can dose for this size tank is 3mL per day. I'm dropping 0.4dKH now. Does this mean that AFR may not be enough?
 
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Regarding the Second and third question - TM AFR will start to work right away. However when you switch, as with any other production you switch to, may require refinement (adjustments up or down) to get to the desired levels.

TM AFR has the calculator, linked below to the TM AFR page. It says:

Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous monitoring of alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached.

Do not exceed a maximum daily dose of 25 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume.

 
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MaxxuM

MaxxuM

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Yes, I'm following the instructions. For my tank it's ~0.85 mL/Day and ~3.5 mL max dose. I dosed 0.5 mL day one, 0.9 mL day two, and 1 mL day three. Alk was 8.3 dKH at start and is now 7.6 dKH.

I'm worried that one of two things will happen... 1. the dKH will swing up too fast if I add too much or 2. if it takes days to regulate I'll be under 6 by Monday night and have to slowly over the next few weeks correct it back to 8.5.

I'm about to do a 3L water change and the makeup water is 8.3dKH so there will be an increase in dKH of about 0.3.
 
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Use the search feature above and widen the net as there are a few posts in the chemistry section talking about the max dose for TM AFR. I recall this question coming up a few times now. I know it may seem odd but as I switched from ESV 2 part to TM AFR I saw a similar pattern but instead of increasing daily I was letting it run about 2 days before I increased. If I needed to bump it used the ALK portion of ESV 2 part and it was fine. This way I could let it work it out on it's own.

If you haven't there is also the TM AFR DIY recipe thread in the BRS sub forum. It is a good read.

Edit: when I say use the search it isn't snarky - I'm suggesting it in case you haven't to catch some of the other threads. I do not have them all book marked.

BRS's thread:
 
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MaxxuM

MaxxuM

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No worries I didn't think you were being snarky. I've actually read that thread. It seems like AFR is based on biology. I'm used to mL/gallons=+0.1dKH. This stuff doesn't seem to work that way. There doesn't seem to be a straight answer. Kalk, Fusion, ESV, etc have a set rate. AFR doesn't.

What it comes down to is it safe for me to try to hold ALK while with 2 part until I reach equilibrium with AFR. The next ALK test is at 11pm. If it sinks below 7.5dKH I'm going to dose 2-part to get to 7.8. Tomorrow I'll test again and adjust AFR higher if it still sinking and try to maintain ALK at 7.8 with 2-part again.
 

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No worries I didn't think you were being snarky. I've actually read that thread. It seems like AFR is based on biology. I'm used to mL/gallons=+0.1dKH. This stuff doesn't seem to work that way. There doesn't seem to be a straight answer. Kalk, Fusion, ESV, etc have a set rate. AFR doesn't.

What it comes down to is it safe for me to try to hold ALK while with 2 part until I reach equilibrium with AFR. The next ALK test is at 11pm. If it sinks below 7.5dKH I'm going to dose 2-part to get to 7.8. Tomorrow I'll test again and adjust AFR higher if it still sinking and try to maintain ALK at 7.8 with 2-part again.
I have to dose part 2 (Alk) about once a week to kinda top off. I dose 28ml a day of AFR to keep my Alk at 8.5 cal at 450 and mg at 1410. About once a week though Alk will creep down to 7.8 then I give it a little Alk from the old bottle of seachem reef fusion part 2 to get it back to 8.5. I have not seen any issues, I have been doing it this way since last Feb. TM said on one of there videos that you might have to top off Alk or cal a slight bit depending on your tank needs totally ok with it
 
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I’m dosing 32ml daily to my “29”gal BioCube. You can go ahead and dose more. Just not a radical amount. I dose more than the recommendation.

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9BD6A803-3294-436C-88E0-598FBC4B7EDC.jpeg
 
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MaxxuM

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I’m dosing 32ml daily to my “29”gal BioCube. You can go ahead and dose more. Just not a radical amount. I dose more than the recommendation.

7880386F-4813-4837-90CD-3E77C3D4E88A.jpeg
E1CC500A-E126-4382-BC8C-C2838B395F44.jpeg
9BD6A803-3294-436C-88E0-598FBC4B7EDC.jpeg

Beauty tank! Wow, you're over the max recommended by 5mL, probably more.

How much ALK do you loose per day without dosing? Does ALK gradually go down over a few days or drop suddenly like other dosing methods if you pause AFR a day or two? And did you experience a lag in raising ALK when you started dosing?

Sorry for all the questions. I've read pages and pages of posts and people just seem to start at the recommended levels and move from there with no issue. They are slim on details and none have said anything about three days of dosing without results.
 
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JustAnotherNanoTank

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Beauty tank! Wow, you're over the max recommended by 5mL, probably more.

How much ALK do you loose per day without dosing? Does ALK gradually go down over a few days or drop suddenly like other dosing methods if you pause AFR a day or two? And did you experience a lag in raising ALK when you started dosing?

Sorry for all the questions. I've read pages and pages of posts and people just seem to start at the recommended levels and move from there with no issue. They are slim on details and none have said anything about three days of dosing without results.
It will drop about 1.5 DKH. I like a high alk at 9.0-9.3. Yes there was a lag but it’s just the lag of the process. Process is the same everytime. Just add more, but the same amount of more from that point forward. Don’t just do less on the next one because you were unsure. Shoot I know tanks dosing WAY over the recommended amount. The biggest concern is the consumption of oxygen that takes place during a large dose, which is why spreading out the dose will become key. Needless to say my tank is high demand so I spread it out but only over 3 doses. All of which are slightly different amounts through the day depending on all consumption from the lights being on. The dose you need changes tho and is not linear!!! As your corals grow you’ll need more because there is more new leading edges consuming elements. Still need to test your alk weekly MINIMUM. I test every 2-4 days religiously. Hope this info helps!
 
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MaxxuM

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It will drop about 1.5 DKH. I like a high alk at 9.0-9.3. Yes there was a lag but it’s just the lag of the process. Process is the same everytime. Just add more, but the same amount of more from that point forward. Don’t just do less on the next one because you were unsure. Shoot I know tanks dosing WAY over the recommended amount. The biggest concern is the consumption of oxygen that takes place during a large dose, which is why spreading out the dose will become key. Needless to say my tank is high demand so I spread it out but only over 3 doses. All of which are slightly different amounts through the day depending on all consumption from the lights being on. The dose you need changes tho and is not linear!!! As your corals grow you’ll need more because there is more new leading edges consuming elements. Still need to test your alk weekly MINIMUM. I test every 2-4 days religiously. Hope this info helps!

Thank you! That's exactly the info I was looking for.

I'll increase the dose incrementally with dosing pump over the next week and monitor daily until I reach 8.5.

Edit: For anyone that might find this post I did dose 2 part last night to halt the dropping ALK @ 7.8. Corals are all open today with no signs of stress.
 

JustAnotherNanoTank

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Thank you! That's exactly the info I was looking for.

I'll increase the dose incrementally with dosing pump over the next week and monitor daily until I reach 8.5.

Edit: For anyone that might find this post I did dose 2 part last night to halt the dropping ALK @ 7.8. Corals are all open today with no signs of stress.
No problem. I have a feeling you’ll find yourself dosing about 3-3.5ml a day when you get there. I would not dose the Alk, just increase your dose sooner. If you keep adding alk I feel it will make it hard for you to see the tipping point. I’d say just go to dosing more AFR.
 
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MaxxuM

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No problem. I have a feeling you’ll find yourself dosing about 3-3.5ml a day when you get there. I would not dose the Alk, just increase your dose sooner. If you keep adding alk I feel it will make it hard for you to see the tipping point. I’d say just go to dosing more AFR.

I did the math (hope it's right) and came to 1.22mL/Day of AFR to maintain my tank @ 0.4dKH/Day loss. If my ALK is 7.8 this evening that means I'm right. I should be able to raise it predictably at that point.

~4.5g Actual Aquarium Liquid Volume = 17 liters

Dosing volume ratio = 0.855 mL AFR : 2 mg/l Ca and 0,28 °dH

[Max Dosage 4.26 mL]

Current Loss ~0.4 dKh / Day

Dosage @ 1.22 mL AFR

[Tropic Marin AFR 1000 mL Price After Tax = $35.90]
[Price : $0.04/Day or $1.31/Month]

Red Sea Reef Foundation Alk/Ca/Mg 1000mL Kit ~$65.00
0.55 mL = 0.4 dKH
~$0.04 / Day (Price Before Coral Colors ABCD)

Not a perfect price comparison of course, but the time and equipment savings can be considerable vs Red Sea liquid solution.
 
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I did the math (hope it's right) and came to 1.22mL/Day of AFR to maintain my tank @ 0.4dKH/Day loss. If my ALK is 7.8 this evening that means I'm right. I should be able to raise it predictably at that point.

~4.5g Actual Aquarium Liquid Volume = 17 liters

Dosing volume ratio = 0.855 mL AFR : 2 mg/l Ca and 0,28 °dH

[Max Dosage 4.26 mL]

Current Loss ~0.4 dKh / Day

Dosage @ 1.22 mL AFR

[Tropic Marin AFR 1000 mL Price After Tax = $35.90]
[Price : $0.04/Day or $1.31/Month]

Red Sea Reef Foundation Alk/Ca/Mg 1000mL Kit ~$65.00
0.55 mL = 0.4 dKH
~$0.04 / Day (Price Before Coral Colors ABCD)

Not a perfect price comparison of course, but the time and equipment savings can be considerable vs Red Sea liquid solution.

There is a DIY recipe for TM AFR and it will lower the price even more. Basically you are buying the Tropic Marin products and mixing on your own thus reducing the price. There is also a complete powder mix coming this month although already out in EMEA. Both the DIY and powder mix make it affordable product to use on larger systems. I'm using it on my 210 gallon.
 
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Dang you brought the math! I just started dumping In 15 ml a day and after two days started testing and when it was low bumped it up by 5 ml till I got stability. Prob not the safest way but it worked. Still right at 30 ml a day and Hope it stays cause it’s getting expensive! Looking forward to TM’s powder version got that to notify my when it makes it across the pond, I will stil pay more for just one powder instead of completely making my own. I got to say the X1 dosing pumps where made for AFR! Best 50.00 doser ever!!! Waiting on ICP results, hopefully the AFR is taking of ALL the trace elements like they advertise. I will find out soon
 
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MaxxuM

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There is a DIY recipe for TM AFR and it will lower the price even more. Basically you are buying the Tropic Marin products and mixing on your own thus reducing the price. There is also a complete powder mix coming this month although already out in EMEA. Both the DIY and powder mix make it affordable product to use on larger systems. I'm using it on my 210 gallon.

Right now for my 5 gallon pico tank the solution is perfect. One pump and one reservoir bottle will probably last me 4 to 5 months. When I move to my 45 gallon I will definitely be DIYing the formula. I’m curious to see what the price will be for a 210 gallon and the DIY formula.
 
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Dang you brought the math! I just started dumping In 15 ml a day and after two days started testing and when it was low bumped it up by 5 ml till I got stability. Prob not the safest way but it worked. Still right at 30 ml a day and Hope it stays cause it’s getting expensive! Looking forward to TM’s powder version got that to notify my when it makes it across the pond, I will stil pay more for just one powder instead of completely making my own. I got to say the X1 dosing pumps where made for AFR! Best 50.00 doser ever!!! Waiting on ICP results, hopefully the AFR is taking of ALL the trace elements like they advertise. I will find out soon

Definitely! I just got that doser and I’m looking for a fitting from 1/8 to 1/4 to hook it up today. Can’t get any more simple, and cheap, than one pump, one doser and one formula. If you could post your ICP results that would be great. I’m really curious as well.
 
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Definitely! I just got that doser and I’m looking for a fitting from 1/8 to 1/4 to hook it up today. Can’t get any more simple, and cheap, than one pump, one doser and one formula. If you could post your ICP results that would be great. I’m really curious as well.
Absolutely! I am hoping that all the trace elements line up. I was dosing iodide and Potassium and something else I cant remember. It was all in the nyos trace elements bottle. My I and K where bottoming out when the corals really kicked into high gear growing. I bet everything shows up just in small numbers. TM seems to err on the side of caution which is good. Of course I have been using a new type of salt since I started AFR so My results won’t be definite. I switched to the tropic Marin reef pro salt which is very conservative on what they add into it. I just do small 5 gallon water changes bimonthly mostly to suck up Detritus. My no3 and po4 is always so low I don’t do WC for the nutrient removal.
 

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Anybody ever notice Alk consumption go crazy when dosing bacteria products? I don’t know the name of the bacteria that does the Alk production In AFR but when I dose Vibrant or microbacter clean ( small amounts) my Alk consumption goes way up to the point I have to supplement with part 2 to keep balance. When I stop dosing either, my Alk balances out again and the AFR keeps everything level. I wonder if these products contain the bacteria that messes with the way existing bacteria in the tank processes the formate? I hope that makes sense. I just couldn’t figure out why Alk was dropping so fast and think the extra bacteria I was adding was pigging out. Good to know if the case
 

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