Hi! Hans-Werner can i combine my carbon dosing scedule (Np-bacto balance and zootonic) with amino organic or would that not make sense? i want to give my coral some aminos
Sorry I meant 0,04 to 0,09. I have life rock and sand. The tank is 2 years old. So amino organic is also a carbon dosing form? On Facebook I was told it won’t interfere with carbon dosing.Does the second number mean 0,09 mg/l? 0,004 mg/l phosphate is a bit low for sure, or does it mean 0,04 mg/l, that would be just in our "good range".
If you have calcareous rocks and maybe even coral gravel as bottom major swings of phosphate by more than one order of magnitude (factor 10) are unlikely and maybe less fact than artefact. At least I would double-check.
If you want better coral growth and good colors I recommend phosphate between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm, and nitrogen is not so important.
I would make the main difference not between inorganic nitrogen vs. amino acids, I see the main difference in reduced nitrogen vs. nitrate. Finally amino acids are just ammonia with a little organic carbon and likely most of the aa end up this way. They are degraded to ammonia and organic carbon by bacteria.Hi Hans, I feel that inorganic forms of Nitrogen is not helpful, but organic forms of Nitrogen is more beneficial. (therefore I use amino acids)
In the biosphere nearly all phosphorus is fully oxidized as phosphate. More reduced phosphites play a very minor role. So that does not differ organic phosphates from condensed phosphates or orthophosphates. The only question regarding organic phosphates and condensed phosphates (i. e. inorganic polyphosphates) is, do the corals or other organisms have the right tools to make use of organic phosphates and condensed phosphates?In your statement about phosphate being more important for coral growth; can I dive deeper and ask if you feel Phosphorus is the important element for coral growth utilizing organophosphate rather than inorganic phosphate or does it even matter?
Maybe we can get some info on this. If I dose the minimum amount together with my np-bb I would be well above the 10ml carbon limit/ day.I would also be interested to know if Amino Organic is a form of carbon dosing, and as such should be considered as part of the maximum "1 ml per 100 l tank volume per day".
I had assumed not (or not significantly) since the direction per the website suggest a higher dosing level of up to "5 ml (0,17 fl. oz.) Tropic Marin Amino-Organic to 200 litres (52 gallons) of aquarium water daily" -- so more than double that of Bacto Balance or Plus-NP.
Currently, I'm dosing 1ml of Bacto Balance and 2ml of Amino Organic into 37 gallons with no negative (and actually very positive) impact. What was stated above regarding the impact of Amino Organic on the N to P ratios was very helpful and consistent with my observations, as it seems to be effectively helping to offset the fact that my refugium (which I use to balance PH swings) or something else in my tank tends to use N more than P.
Am I also correct in thinking that if I like this 2ml Amino Organic to 1ml of Bacto Balance ratio, I can actually combine them and save myself a dosing head for something else? Thanks!
Maybe we can get some info on this. If I dose the minimum amount together with my np-bb I would be well above the 10ml carbon limit/ day.
Thank you for taking time answer all this in detail! Did my first dose of the aminos today and everything looks good so far also tried out omega vital nori which I like very much already. Happy reefingAmino-Organic is a bit different from Elimi-NP, Plus-NP, NP-Bacto-Balance, Zootonic and Phytonic as far as we have chosen a different kind of preservation which is proven for amino acids. This reduces the amount of organic carbon added with Amino-Organic a bit compared to the other products. Nevertheless it contains some organic carbon and the amino acids finally are also organic compounds.
Like I mentioned above, the general limit can be exceeded, and 1 ml per 100 l per day is just a kind of rule of thumb, but dose higher dosages with some care.
Thank you for your detailed write up in response to my question.- Phosphate seems to play a major role in calcification. Much of the phosphate corals need is incorporated into the skeletons
I would make the main difference not between inorganic nitrogen vs. amino acids, I see the main difference in reduced nitrogen vs. nitrate. Finally amino acids are just ammonia with a little organic carbon and likely most of the aa end up this way. They are degraded to ammonia and organic carbon by bacteria.
Nitrate is oxidized nitrogen and a strong oxidant and forms reactive oxygen species when incorporated by the corals.
This is why NP-Bacto-Balance and Plus-NP also supply mainly reduced nitrogen compounds and only little nitrate. That is not the main difference between these nutrient products and our Amino-Organic. The main difference is that Amino-Organic supplies only nitrogen compounds and no phosphates. This is useful when the tank is well supplied with phosphates like in tanks run with coral rubble reactors.
In the biosphere nearly all phosphorus is fully oxidized as phosphate. More reduced phosphites play a very minor role. So that does not differ organic phosphates from condensed phosphates or orthophosphates. The only question regarding organic phosphates and condensed phosphates (i. e. inorganic polyphosphates) is, do the corals or other organisms have the right tools to make use of organic phosphates and condensed phosphates?
Since much of the phosphates present in reef waters are organic phosphates and condensed storage phosphates of bacteria and algae, it makes sense for corals to have these tools and so they have. The enzymes are called "alkaline phosphatases" that cut organic phosphates and condensed phosphates into orthophosphates which are taken up.
The reasons why phosphate is more important for coral growth than nitrate and other nitrogen compounds are diverse:
- Phosphate seems to play a major role in calcification. Much of the phosphate corals need is incorporated into the skeletons (--> coral rubble reactor) and a bit more surprising, calficying algae seem to have demands more similar to corals than to most non-calcifying algae. Phosphate seems to be essential for the calcification process.
- Corals can take up nitrogen compounds (ammonium, nitrate, amino acids, urea) from very low concentrations. They need phosphate in similar molar concentrations in the water than nitrogen compounds to be able to generate a net uptake. Below concentrations of 0.01 to 0.02 ppm most corals show no net uptake of phosphate or even leak phosphate into the water. This is the reason why our recommended concentrations start with 0.03 ppm.
- Finally corals can satisfy a significant proportion of their nitrogen needs by making reduced nitrogen compounds themselves. Some bacteria of the so called "coral holobiont", the entirety of organisms forming the living coral symbiotic community, can reduce N2 (dissolved nitrogen gas) to ammonia which the coral holobiont can utilize and use.
There are other ways to measure nitrogen compounds that include an oxidation step. One method is the "Kjeldahl digestion". I have tried to test for nitrate after the "normal" phosphate digestion, but not sure whether the results where correct and no systematic tests.“DFAA quantification was performed using a spectrofluorometer” …is there a way that the home hobbyist to quantify complex organic nitrogen compounds? I wouldn’t even need to have a break down. Even a total quantity would be great. Could water turbidity be used? Better than nothing?
I think our Tropic Marin Plus-NP addresses P deficiency quite well.when can we expect a product to address phosphates deficiency, to be used in combination with Amino-Organic?