Tropic Marin Amino Organic

[cosicologne]

Hi! Hans-Werner can i combine my carbon dosing scedule (Np-bacto balance and zootonic) with amino organic or would that not make sense? i want to give my coral some aminos

 

[Hans-Werner]

Combining Tropic Marin Amino-Organic with NP-Bacto-Balance and/or Zootonic may make sense, you just need to be aware that Amino-Organic will shift dosing into the nitrogen direction. It is similar to dosing NP-Bacto-Balance with a different N : P ratio, higher in N. This means, phosphate should not be in low supply. Otherwise the combination is perfectly possible and with no negative crossreactions.

The only thing you have to take care of is, that the combined dosage of all three products should not exceed 1 ml per 100 l tank volume per day. If you are aware of possible negative effects of organic carbon dosing like bacterial blooms and oxygen depletion, you may very carefully exceed this maximum recommended dosage later on.

However, 1 ml per 100 l aquarium volume per day combined should be sufficient in very most cases. If you have found a "best ratio" for your tank you can even mix these products.

 

[cosicologne]

Thank you Hans-Werner.

I currently dose All for reef (awesome), once a week reef actif and 7ml of Np-bacto-balance dayli. I meassure my po4 every night at 7pm and it usually it stays between 0.04 and 0.07 ish. I f i read 0.06 for example i dose 2ml of zootonic. if i read 0,04 i dose some zooton or feed more. I also add 7ml of A-Elements dayli beacuse my iodine was low with 36.

My corals have not yet adapted to the carbon dosing fully i think. since growth is not yet perfect. I started the switch from Balling light (FM) to Tropic marin just before christmas (should have switched earlier)

In the directions of amino-organic it says up to 5ml per 200L. So for My 1000 Liter tank doing carbon dosing i could only add like a couple of ml a day. Is it worth it?

Like:
7ml Np-BB plus 3ml Amino-organic
or
7ml Np-BB plus 2ml zootonic plus 1ml amino

PS: I never had a bacterial bloom ad oxygen levels are reached by big skimmer plus co2 scubber plus very turbolent surface flow.

I also found that the day after i dose reef activ my phosphate is the lowest usuallu 0.04 or even 0.04 and then creeps up over the following days. I thought increasing the dose of np-bb is a good i idea. Its not so easy to know the perfect ml amount to dose even measuring po4 dayli with hanna checker.


Best regards and thank you very much!

 

[Hans-Werner]

In my experience phosphate is one of the best growth promoters for corals. Some publications even say that a nitrogen deficiency to a certain degree is necessary for the proper working of the coral-zooxanthellae mutualism. My experiences confirm this.

If you want better coral growth and good colors I recommend phosphate between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm, and nitrogen is not so important. For higher phosphate concentrations please take into account dosing Plus-NP instead of NP-Bacto-Balance. The higher nitrogen concentration in Plus-NP has a similar effect as Amino-Organic. Maybe you can "kill two birds with one stone".

We are working on the phosphate theme.

 

[cosicologne]

Ok thats confusing because after the research i have done and the TM videos by lou ekous for example a level 0f 0,03 to 0,1 Po4 was recommended. Thats why i started carbon dosing in the first place. I am truly confused now xD

I always had high Po4 in the past with algae issues etc and browning corals. I used Rowaphos but my tank looks muchg better cleaner and healthier since i carbon dose. Its just hard for me to keep po4 stable but maybe i measure to often. On the tropic marin website under ideal water parameters it says: Po4 0,03 to 0,1. and that is what the face book group adviced me as well. Thank you

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yes, the "state of the art" regarding phosphate is constantly changing. Like I mentioned, we are working on this theme and we have to catch up with our recommendations which needs still a bit longer. I think also lighting may play a role, LED vs. "old school".

What I can say for sure is, that "as little as possible" is not the right recommendation. And phosphate seems not to be a growth inhibitor but a growth promoter. However there may be situations you don't want the fastest possible growth, but you mentioned you want more growth. So, a little higher phosphate concentrations may do it.

 

[cosicologne]

Thanks for the reply. I think stability is key. I have Po4 swings during the week as mentioned before, do you think those swings (0,004 to 00,9 lets say) are dangerous. Do you have an advice what i could do to make it more stable. kind regards.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Does the second number mean 0,09 mg/l? 0,004 mg/l phosphate is a bit low for sure, or does it mean 0,04 mg/l, that would be just in our "good range".

If you have calcareous rocks and maybe even coral gravel as bottom major swings of phosphate by more than one order of magnitude (factor 10) are unlikely and maybe less fact than artefact. At least I would double-check.

 

[cosicologne]

Does the second number mean 0,09 mg/l? 0,004 mg/l phosphate is a bit low for sure, or does it mean 0,04 mg/l, that would be just in our "good range".

If you have calcareous rocks and maybe even coral gravel as bottom major swings of phosphate by more than one order of magnitude (factor 10) are unlikely and maybe less fact than artefact. At least I would double-check.

Sorry I meant 0,04 to 0,09. I have life rock and sand. The tank is 2 years old. So amino organic is also a carbon dosing form? On Facebook I was told it won’t interfere with carbon dosing.

Greetings

 

[joshbd]

I would also be interested to know if Amino Organic is a form of carbon dosing, and as such should be considered as part of the maximum "1 ml per 100 l tank volume per day".

I had assumed not (or not significantly) since the direction per the website suggest a higher dosing level of up to "5 ml (0,17 fl. oz.) Tropic Marin Amino-Organic to 200 litres (52 gallons) of aquarium water daily" -- so more than double that of Bacto Balance or Plus-NP.

Currently, I'm dosing 1ml of Bacto Balance and 2ml of Amino Organic into 37 gallons with no negative (and actually very positive) impact. What was stated above regarding the impact of Amino Organic on the N to P ratios was very helpful and consistent with my observations, as it seems to be effectively helping to offset the fact that my refugium (which I use to balance PH swings) or something else in my tank tends to use N more than P.

Am I also correct in thinking that if I like this 2ml Amino Organic to 1ml of Bacto Balance ratio, I can actually combine them and save myself a dosing head for something else? Thanks!

 

[reefluvrr]

If you want better coral growth and good colors I recommend phosphate between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm, and nitrogen is not so important.

Hi Hans, I feel that inorganic forms of Nitrogen is not helpful, but organic forms of Nitrogen is more beneficial. (therefore I use amino acids)

In your statement about phosphate being more important for coral growth; can I dive deeper and ask if you feel Phosphorus is the important element for coral growth utilizing organophosphate rather than inorganic phosphate or does it even matter?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hi Hans, I feel that inorganic forms of Nitrogen is not helpful, but organic forms of Nitrogen is more beneficial. (therefore I use amino acids)

I would make the main difference not between inorganic nitrogen vs. amino acids, I see the main difference in reduced nitrogen vs. nitrate. Finally amino acids are just ammonia with a little organic carbon and likely most of the aa end up this way. They are degraded to ammonia and organic carbon by bacteria.

Nitrate is oxidized nitrogen and a strong oxidant and forms reactive oxygen species when incorporated by the corals.

This is why NP-Bacto-Balance and Plus-NP also supply mainly reduced nitrogen compounds and only little nitrate. That is not the main difference between these nutrient products and our Amino-Organic. The main difference is that Amino-Organic supplies only nitrogen compounds and no phosphates. This is useful when the tank is well supplied with phosphates like in tanks run with coral rubble reactors.

In your statement about phosphate being more important for coral growth; can I dive deeper and ask if you feel Phosphorus is the important element for coral growth utilizing organophosphate rather than inorganic phosphate or does it even matter?

In the biosphere nearly all phosphorus is fully oxidized as phosphate. More reduced phosphites play a very minor role. So that does not differ organic phosphates from condensed phosphates or orthophosphates. The only question regarding organic phosphates and condensed phosphates (i. e. inorganic polyphosphates) is, do the corals or other organisms have the right tools to make use of organic phosphates and condensed phosphates?

Since much of the phosphates present in reef waters are organic phosphates and condensed storage phosphates of bacteria and algae, it makes sense for corals to have these tools and so they have. The enzymes are called "alkaline phosphatases" that cut organic phosphates and condensed phosphates into orthophosphates which are taken up.

The reasons why phosphate is more important for coral growth than nitrate and other nitrogen compounds are diverse:

- Phosphate seems to play a major role in calcification. Much of the phosphate corals need is incorporated into the skeletons (--> coral rubble reactor) and a bit more surprising, calficying algae seem to have demands more similar to corals than to most non-calcifying algae. Phosphate seems to be essential for the calcification process.

- Corals can take up nitrogen compounds (ammonium, nitrate, amino acids, urea) from very low concentrations. They need phosphate in similar molar concentrations in the water than nitrogen compounds to be able to generate a net uptake. Below concentrations of 0.01 to 0.02 ppm most corals show no net uptake of phosphate or even leak phosphate into the water. This is the reason why our recommended concentrations start with 0.03 ppm.

- Finally corals can satisfy a significant proportion of their nitrogen needs by making reduced nitrogen compounds themselves. Some bacteria of the so called "coral holobiont", the entirety of organisms forming the living coral symbiotic community, can reduce N2 (dissolved nitrogen gas) to ammonia which the coral holobiont can utilize and use.

 

[cosicologne]

I would also be interested to know if Amino Organic is a form of carbon dosing, and as such should be considered as part of the maximum "1 ml per 100 l tank volume per day".

I had assumed not (or not significantly) since the direction per the website suggest a higher dosing level of up to "5 ml (0,17 fl. oz.) Tropic Marin Amino-Organic to 200 litres (52 gallons) of aquarium water daily" -- so more than double that of Bacto Balance or Plus-NP.

Currently, I'm dosing 1ml of Bacto Balance and 2ml of Amino Organic into 37 gallons with no negative (and actually very positive) impact. What was stated above regarding the impact of Amino Organic on the N to P ratios was very helpful and consistent with my observations, as it seems to be effectively helping to offset the fact that my refugium (which I use to balance PH swings) or something else in my tank tends to use N more than P.

Am I also correct in thinking that if I like this 2ml Amino Organic to 1ml of Bacto Balance ratio, I can actually combine them and save myself a dosing head for something else? Thanks!

Maybe we can get some info on this. If I dose the minimum amount together with my np-bb I would be well above the 10ml carbon limit/ day.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Maybe we can get some info on this. If I dose the minimum amount together with my np-bb I would be well above the 10ml carbon limit/ day.

Amino-Organic is a bit different from Elimi-NP, Plus-NP, NP-Bacto-Balance, Zootonic and Phytonic as far as we have chosen a different kind of preservation which is proven for amino acids. This reduces the amount of organic carbon added with Amino-Organic a bit compared to the other products. Nevertheless it contains some organic carbon and the amino acids finally are also organic compounds.

Like I mentioned above, the general limit can be exceeded, and 1 ml per 100 l per day is just a kind of rule of thumb, but dose higher dosages with some care.

 

[cosicologne]

Amino-Organic is a bit different from Elimi-NP, Plus-NP, NP-Bacto-Balance, Zootonic and Phytonic as far as we have chosen a different kind of preservation which is proven for amino acids. This reduces the amount of organic carbon added with Amino-Organic a bit compared to the other products. Nevertheless it contains some organic carbon and the amino acids finally are also organic compounds.

Like I mentioned above, the general limit can be exceeded, and 1 ml per 100 l per day is just a kind of rule of thumb, but dose higher dosages with some care.

Thank you for taking time answer all this in detail! Did my first dose of the aminos today and everything looks good so far also tried out omega vital nori which I like very much already. Happy reefing

 

[Hans-Werner]

also tried out omega vital nori which I like very much already.

Yes, natural, dried, raw nori as flakes not as sheets ... an excellent feed

 

[reefluvrr]

- Phosphate seems to play a major role in calcification. Much of the phosphate corals need is incorporated into the skeletons

Thank you for your detailed write up in response to my question.
I am looking forward to when you can share more of your findings and recommendations.

I have experienced too low phosphate levels where my corals do not look happy at all. You mentioned phosphate levels at 0.1 to 0.2 being good for growth and color.

Is it still true that possibly any higher levels if I can assume say above 0.2 results in decrease calcification in corals? (Too much of a anything can be bad)

 

[Biologic]

I would make the main difference not between inorganic nitrogen vs. amino acids, I see the main difference in reduced nitrogen vs. nitrate. Finally amino acids are just ammonia with a little organic carbon and likely most of the aa end up this way. They are degraded to ammonia and organic carbon by bacteria.

Nitrate is oxidized nitrogen and a strong oxidant and forms reactive oxygen species when incorporated by the corals.

This is why NP-Bacto-Balance and Plus-NP also supply mainly reduced nitrogen compounds and only little nitrate. That is not the main difference between these nutrient products and our Amino-Organic. The main difference is that Amino-Organic supplies only nitrogen compounds and no phosphates. This is useful when the tank is well supplied with phosphates like in tanks run with coral rubble reactors.


In the biosphere nearly all phosphorus is fully oxidized as phosphate. More reduced phosphites play a very minor role. So that does not differ organic phosphates from condensed phosphates or orthophosphates. The only question regarding organic phosphates and condensed phosphates (i. e. inorganic polyphosphates) is, do the corals or other organisms have the right tools to make use of organic phosphates and condensed phosphates?

Since much of the phosphates present in reef waters are organic phosphates and condensed storage phosphates of bacteria and algae, it makes sense for corals to have these tools and so they have. The enzymes are called "alkaline phosphatases" that cut organic phosphates and condensed phosphates into orthophosphates which are taken up.

The reasons why phosphate is more important for coral growth than nitrate and other nitrogen compounds are diverse:

- Phosphate seems to play a major role in calcification. Much of the phosphate corals need is incorporated into the skeletons (--> coral rubble reactor) and a bit more surprising, calficying algae seem to have demands more similar to corals than to most non-calcifying algae. Phosphate seems to be essential for the calcification process.

- Corals can take up nitrogen compounds (ammonium, nitrate, amino acids, urea) from very low concentrations. They need phosphate in similar molar concentrations in the water than nitrogen compounds to be able to generate a net uptake. Below concentrations of 0.01 to 0.02 ppm most corals show no net uptake of phosphate or even leak phosphate into the water. This is the reason why our recommended concentrations start with 0.03 ppm.

- Finally corals can satisfy a significant proportion of their nitrogen needs by making reduced nitrogen compounds themselves. Some bacteria of the so called "coral holobiont", the entirety of organisms forming the living coral symbiotic community, can reduce N2 (dissolved nitrogen gas) to ammonia which the coral holobiont can utilize and use.

Two questions —

Is there any white paper studies for phosphate?

The study attached to my post establishes amino acid and nitrogen uptake for corals in aquaria. We have great methods to measure phosphate and nitrate, but no clear methods to measure more complex organic compounds.

“DFAA quantification was performed using a spectrofluorometer” …is there a way that the home hobbyist to quantify complex organic nitrogen compounds? I wouldn’t even need to have a break down. Even a total quantity would be great. Could water turbidity be used? Better than nothing?

Just restarted my tank after a Hurricane hit 5 months ago. Very excited to get a hold of your product.

 

[Reefr]

Dear @Hans-Werner
You said you are working on the phosphates part : when can we expect a product to address phosphates deficiency, to be used in combination with Amino-Organic? Or even to replace Amino-Organic (ie a kind of Amino Organic with organophosphates).
Thank you for your important contribution on this forum

 

[Hans-Werner]

“DFAA quantification was performed using a spectrofluorometer” …is there a way that the home hobbyist to quantify complex organic nitrogen compounds? I wouldn’t even need to have a break down. Even a total quantity would be great. Could water turbidity be used? Better than nothing?

There are other ways to measure nitrogen compounds that include an oxidation step. One method is the "Kjeldahl digestion". I have tried to test for nitrate after the "normal" phosphate digestion, but not sure whether the results where correct and no systematic tests.

I think the nitrogen analysis of Triton measures it after oxidation in their N-DOC-Test if I interpret this right but I'm not sure.

when can we expect a product to address phosphates deficiency, to be used in combination with Amino-Organic?

I think our Tropic Marin Plus-NP addresses P deficiency quite well.

I hope the P-product will be ready in a few months, so maybe it will be available in early autumn or maybe summer. Of course it should be something special that avoids the usual problems with phosphate dosage like adsorption to rocks and substrates. "Einfach kann ja jeder", anyone can simple may be a crude translation ...