Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In general, I can’t usefully make recommendations about products with unknown secret ingredients, but raising the dose seems reasonable.

 

[phil bevilacqua]

Hello,
Since I have developed these products I want to describe the ideas behind the products.

We want to make our products as easy to use and at the same time as safe as possible. The view at nutrients is very much a matter of personal opinion. In my eyes these opinions are not always correct. Acropora species and other SPS have a certain ecological physiology and certain demands in aquaria. Nuisance algae have a bit different demands. We want to offer safe N and P additives for different tanks with different stocks of fish and corals, mainly for use with our balanced calcium additives like Original Balling, Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef. These tanks tend to be rather on the low phosphate side.
We are just redoing our product for tanks with calcium reactors which adds only organic nitrogen and no phosphate because the calcium reactor filled with coral rubble usually supplies enough phosphate to the corals.

The nutrients in our N and P additives are a combination of organic and inorganic N and P. These nutrients are combined with an organic carbon additive. This seems contradictory at first glance but in my opinion it is not. With these products we want to introduce a dynamic equilibrium of nutrients. Let me explain this by the image of a bucket with an own faucet under a water faucet. If you open only the water faucet the bucket will be full somewhen and flow over. If you close the water faucet completely and open the bucket faucet it will run dry somewhen. In a dynamic equilibrium both faucets are opened to a certain degree. By mechanisms like increasing water pressure with rising water level in the bucket this increases the likelihood of a balanced flow of water through the bucket without running dry completely and without flowing over a lot. With some likelihood the water level in the bucket will stabilize at a certain level although water is added continuously. Small regulations of the water faucet or of the bucket faucet will result in only minor variations of the water level. This is the explanation of a dynamic equilibrium we want to create for nutrients.

The organic carbon source in my opinion has a second very positive effect. If you add inorganic ortho-phosphate to a tank low in phosphate, at first much of the phosphate is adsorbed to rocks, sand and gravel, all the calcareous materials in the tank. Only after these calcareous materials have reached a certain degree of saturation enough phosphate remains in the water to be tested and to nourish corals. The phosphate concentration suddenly jumps up although you have changed nothing with your phosphate additions. You stop phosphate addition, phosphate concentration decreases in the water but the phosphate adsorbed to calcareous materials remain in place. Nuisance algae and cyanobacteria start to grow at the expense of the adsorbed phosphate while the corals have no access to the adsorbed phosphate. These phosphate swings are amongst the worst things that can happen to your corals and to your tank because SPS are quite sensitive to phosphate swings. This has something to do with their rapid calcification which needs and consumes phosphate.

The role of the organic carbon source is to increase the growth of heterotrophic bacteria on the corals, the decoration and in the water and increase the incorporation of phosphate into bacterial biomass. Corals have direct access to the bacterial biomass growing on their surface and in their gastric cavity, and to bacterioplankton forming in the water. Much of the bacterial biomass growing on other surfaces will be eaten by grazers or forming secondary bacterioplankton by sloughing off. Both processes give the corals access to further nutrients. We have tried to find a organic carbon source that is most beneficial to the corals and maybe to the symbiotic bacteria growing on and in corals. In this way we have tried to "target feed" the corals with nutrients instead of saturating rocks and gravel with phosphate for algal growth.

That is a short description of the ideas and experiences behind our nutrient additives and we hope you agree that they work quite well.

Do you have something to help just lower phosphate? My tank has low nitrate and plenty of phosphate. Lol. Currently about .13 phosphate and .1 to 1 nitrate by adding nitrate additives

 

[Hans-Werner]

Do you have something to help just lower phosphate? My tank has low nitrate and plenty of phosphate. Lol. Currently about .13 phosphate and .1 to 1 nitrate by adding nitrate additives

I think both concentrations are not bad and with some simple measures like improved feeding with high energy feeds (high in PUFA oils) or enrichment of feeds with PUFA oils you could get phosphate below 0.1 ppm.

Another method to lower specifically phosphate is the addition of amino acids. We offer Amino-Organic with amino acids and other beneficial organic nitrogen compounds.

Nevertheless we offer also more invasive methods like normal phosphate adsorbers Elimi-Phos (alumina based) and Elimi-Phos Longlife (iron based) and a liquid phosphate adsorber Elimi-Phos Rapid which is lanthanum based.

I recommend to be careful when lowering specifically phosphate concentrations.

 

[phil bevilacqua]

I think both concentrations are not bad and with some simple measures like improved feeding with high energy feeds (high in PUFA oils) or enrichment of feeds with PUFA oils you could get phosphate below 0.1 ppm.

Another method to lower specifically phosphate is the addition of amino acids. We offer Amino-Organic with amino acids and other beneficial organic nitrogen compounds.

Nevertheless we offer also more invasive methods like normal phosphate adsorbers Elimi-Phos (alumina based) and Elimi-Phos Longlife (iron based) and a liquid phosphate adsorber Elimi-Phos Rapid which is lanthanum based.

I recommend to be careful when lowering specifically phosphate concentrations.

I would like to not have to add nitrates that’s death but it seems like everything I use right now ends up lowering my nitrates too much to where I have to add. Lol. There’s no room in my sump for a reactor which is why I don’t use any kind of GFL products

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would like to not have to add nitrates that’s death but it seems like everything I use right now ends up lowering my nitrates too much to where I have to add. Lol. There’s no room in my sump for a reactor which is why I don’t use any kind of GFL products

Large particulate aluminum oxide and lanthanum dosing each do not need a reactor.

 

[phil bevilacqua]

Large particulate aluminum oxide and lanthanum dosing each do not need a reactor.

Is there a trick to the lanthium? I’ve used it before and it’s actually built up in my tank and caused me problems according to my ICP test

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there a trick to the lanthium? I’ve used it before and it’s actually built up in my tank and caused me problems according to my ICP test

What level lanthanum did you detect? Did you detect anything else problematic about it?

Lanthanum solubility in the deep ocean is limited by the phosphate concentration, precipitating lanthanum phosphate. Thus, I would not expect one to stably have both elevated lanthanum and elevated phosphate for long in a reef tank..

 

[phil bevilacqua]

What level lanthanum did you detect? Did you detect anything else problematic about it?

Lanthanum solubility in the deep ocean is limited by the phosphate concentration, precipitating lanthanum phosphate. Thus, I would not expect one to stably have both elevated lanthanum and elevated phosphate for long in a reef tank..

No that was it. I can’t remember the exact level but it was up in the red when I got my test back… They recommended six water changes. I haven’t used it since. But somebody else told me that you’re supposed to use it inside a sock?? I just added it to water

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No that was it. I can’t remember the exact level but it was up in the red when I got my test back… They recommended six water changes. I haven’t used it since. But somebody else told me that you’re supposed to use it inside a sock?? I just added it to water

Yes, I'd read up on how to dose it (just before a particulate filter is good), but I would not assume there is a problem with some detectable lanthanum.

 

[User1]

As suggested by @Randy Holmes-Farley dose before a filter, or in one. When I dosed a LC based solution I slowly dripped into a high micron filter sock before my return chamber in my sump. I've used LC with my dry pukani rock before it went into my display and saw a white cloud. I also dosed in my display after and saw it. So the filter sock (300 or so micron) is a good idea although it may clog so be aware.

 

[tanwjk]

Another method to lower specifically phosphate is the addition of amino acids. We offer Amino-Organic with amino acids and other beneficial organic nitrogen compounds.

@Hans-Werner, I'm interested to know how does addition of amino acids reduces phosphate? Do you mean partial replacement of food to amino acids?

 

[tanwjk]

@Hans-Werner, I'm interested to know how does addition of amino acids reduces phosphate? Do you mean partial replacement of food to amino acids?

I found the answer through TM YouTube video. Link below.

Tropic Marin Amino-Organic - EN
Important Coral Nutrients: Amino Acids and Nitrogen Compounds. Pale or brownish corals are often caused by a too low concentration of easily digestible nitrogen compounds. Tropic Marin Amino-Organic contains amino acids and other organic nitrogen compounds that stimulate the growth and color of soft and hard corals, as well as disc anemones and zoanthids. Phosphate is absorbed from the water due to the resulting increase in growth following amino-acid supplementation. This results in a natural reduction of the phosphate concentration in the water column. These near-natural conditions lead to the animals exhibiting more plump and full polyp extension, and showing more vibrant colors.

 

[Ilya_Tihomirov]

Tell me.
Does NP-plus affect pH? I noticed that when NP-Plus was added, the pH dropped, I dosed NP-Plus for 4 months I did not notice an improvement in SPS - they were the same pale, but they were growing.
To compensate for the drop in pH, BA PH + boost is advised, but I'm afraid it will affect kH

 

[Hans-Werner]

Since Plus-NP also adds organic carbon it may affect pH, depending from aeration etc..

If the corals remain pale maybe you have to add additional trace elements?

Most pH boosters will affect KH. Kalkwasser (clear calcium hydroxide solution) elevates pH without elevating KH.

 

[Ilya_Tihomirov]

Since Plus-NP also adds organic carbon it may affect pH, depending from aeration etc..

If the corals remain pale maybe you have to add additional trace elements?

Most pH boosters will affect KH. Kalkwasser (clear calcium hydroxide solution) elevates pH without elevating KH.

Thank you.
What product would you recommend to compensate for the drop in pH without raising kH?

 

[Hans-Werner]

What is the pH in your aquarium? If it is not extremely low I wouldn't do anything, avoid chasing numbers, also in pH. In my opinion effect of low/high pH is overestimated in most aquaria. Also most estimates of seawater pH are rather on the high side, please see here. In low latitude Pacific Ocean surface pH is 8.0 +/- 0.1 according to Millero, in high latitudes and deep ocean it is much lower. Seawater surface pH hardly exceeds 8.1 anywhere in the Pacific Ocean.

If you still want to elevate pH I recommend Kalkwasser, saturated calcium hydroxide solution, for example from BRS. Application is according to instructions.

 

[Ilya_Tihomirov]

What is the pH in your aquarium? If it is not extremely low I wouldn't do anything, avoid chasing numbers, also in pH. In my opinion effect of low/high pH is overestimated in most aquaria. Also most estimates of seawater pH are rather on the high side, please see here. In low latitude Pacific Ocean surface pH is 8.0 +/- 0.1 according to Millero, in high latitudes and deep ocean it is much lower. Seawater surface pH hardly exceeds 8.1 anywhere in the Pacific Ocean.

If you still want to elevate pH I recommend Kalkwasser, saturated calcium hydroxide solution, for example from BRS. Application is according to instructions.

It's 7.4 now but my corals are pale and growing.
I am wary of using Kalkwasser as it will likely raise kH as does calcium. And calcium, as I understand it, is strongly related to kH. also my kH 8.9 was last night. I also use soda lime as a CO2 scruber.

 

[Hans-Werner]

The difference between Kalkwasser and soda ash is that Kalkwasser adds little KH and little calcium. After calcium carbonate is formed, i. e. by corals or coralline algae, nothing remains, no buildup of excess KH.

When you use soda ash at least some of the KH will remain and calcium concentration will drop. It influences the alkalinity much more.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you.
What product would you recommend to compensate for the drop in pH without raising kH?

There is no possible product that can be added to an aquarium to boost pH that is not also an alkalinity supplement.

You can remove CO2 to raise pH (fresher air in the room, CO2 scrubber, more photosynthesis, etc.) or you can use an alkalinity supplement with a high boost to pH (carbonate) or a very high boost to pH (hydroxide).

 

[Ilya_Tihomirov]

What is the pH in your aquarium? If it is not extremely low I wouldn't do anything, avoid chasing numbers, also in pH. In my opinion effect of low/high pH is overestimated in most aquaria. Also most estimates of seawater pH are rather on the high side, please see here. In low latitude Pacific Ocean surface pH is 8.0 +/- 0.1 according to Millero, in high latitudes and deep ocean it is much lower. Seawater surface pH hardly exceeds 8.1 anywhere in the Pacific Ocean.

If you still want to elevate pH I recommend Kalkwasser, saturated calcium hydroxide solution, for example from BRS. Application is according to instructions.

I have Kalkwasser Seachem available, can it be used for these purposes?