Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

[Bramzor]

I've been trying to figure out a safe way to dose nutrients without it screwing up my system with algae.
After some time I found "Tropic Marin Plus-NP". But it's hard to understand how it works exactly because as I understand, its N + P + Carbon? So it would only be available for a small time?

Searched on the internet and found some more info:

Quote:
In Plus NP there is organic N, inorganic N and inorganic P. But since it contains an organic carbon source bacteria will also incorporate the inorganic forms before they are adsorbed to calcareous rocks and sand and will not or only in part be shown by test kits. Indeed Plus-NP is similar to NP-Bacto-Balance but with more nutrients.



So what am I missing here? What is the point in dosing N+P+Carbon in the same dose? Does it really work as a way to make nutrients available in a ULNS tank?

 

[Tompickles]

Following along on this one I’ve been considering dosing nitrate as all my test kits read zero and some acros don’t look good

 

[Bramzor]

Following along on this one I’ve been considering dosing nitrate as all my test kits read zero and some acros don’t look good

I have bad experience dosing both PO4 and NO3. But if there is a safe way to do it so it's more likely to only be available for the corals instead of the algae, it might be a good solution though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It sounds like one or more organic compounds that contain N and P. I don’t know that it is any better than dosing inorganic N and P (the stateD reasons don’t seem important to me), but it seems like a fine product to try if you have low N and P and like to experiment.

 

[Bramzor]

It sounds like one or more organic compounds that contain N and P. I don’t know that it is any better than dosing inorganic N and P (the stateD reasons don’t seem important to me), but it seems like a fine product to try if you have low N and P and like to experiment.

Apparently it should be organic and inorganic compounds of N and P together with a Carbon source which probably targets only the organic or the inorganic compounds leaving the others in a balanced way so they are available for the corals. Thought they also included K+ trace elements in it.

So it actually feels like this combined with the All For Reef sounds like a perfect combo. Although All For Reef also has some carbon effects (calcium formate) so I'm not sure if this would all work together nicely.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Apparently it should be organic and inorganic compounds of N and P together with a Carbon source which probably targets only the organic or the inorganic compounds leaving the others in a balanced way so they are available for the corals. Thought they also included K+ trace elements in it.

So it actually feels like this combined with the All For Reef sounds like a perfect combo. Although All For Reef also has some carbon effects (calcium formate) so I'm not sure if this would all work together nicely.

I don’t think that’s true from the description I read that they wrote, but it may be poorly written. It sounds purely organic to me, which is not necessarily a problem (except for measurement) but also may not be an advantage.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This Is their statement. I’m curious if the quote you found was from them, or possibly someone else’s misinterpretation:


Tropic Marin® Plus-NP provides these phosphates and nitrogen compounds in concentrations that are tailored to the corals’ needs. As they are bound by an organic energy source, nitrogen and phosphates can be utilized by corals more efficiently than inorganic nutritional salt additives. This approach minimizes the loss of nutrients caused by denitrification and adsorption, prevents nutrient deficiency in the corals and restores growth.

In my interpretation, bound by an organic energy source implies the N and P are part of the organic compound, like a phospholipid.

 

[Bramzor]

@Randy Holmes-Farley yes quote was from them but on another forum so I cannot link it. Can’t remember the name but I know he also posts here from time to time. It’s a German name.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

It might be useful for us to help you if we knew what you were specifically trying to fix. You noted that you wanted a "safe way to dose nutrients without it screwing up my system with algae". So do you have a situation where your nutrients are too low and corals are bleaching? Or are you trying to accelerate growth? Posting water chemistry numbers would assist us, specifically the alkalinity, phosphate and nitrate numbers.

By the way, another way to describe an organic compound that incorporates nitrogen and phosphorus is "food".

 

[Keenan]

Maybe @Lou Ekus can help us out.

I myself have bottomed out nutrients (NO3 and PO4) and no matter how much I feed I can’t get them up. I think the ClariSea automatic filter roller is taking too much out of the water as my skimmer has been nearly bone dry since installing the roller mat.

I picked up some Plus-NP a few weeks ago, however as mentioned earlier the effect cannot be measured entirely. I don’t think it’s hurt my system but can’t say it’s helped it either. Going to give it some more time and see if things change.

 

[Bramzor]

It might be useful for us to help you if we knew what you were specifically trying to fix. You noted that you wanted a "safe way to dose nutrients without it screwing up my system with algae". So do you have a situation where your nutrients are too low and corals are bleaching? Or are you trying to accelerate growth? Posting water chemistry numbers would assist us, specifically the alkalinity, phosphate and nitrate numbers.

By the way, another way to describe an organic compound that incorporates nitrogen and phosphorus is "food".

I do not have a lot of corals currently as I’m trying to fight the algae after dosing PO4 for some time in orde to lower NO3 using a carbon source. So long story short: I want to run ULNS but without letting the corals starve.

One of the issues with dosing PO4 for example is that it gets buffered so it’s a pain to get stable in my experience.

So I do like the idea where you dose N and P in a balanced way together with carbon so you would end up with stable parameters. And that is how I interpret how bacto balance and np plus works. Bacto balance with the goal to lower PO4 and NO3 using carbon and dosing a limited amount for the corals in the same dose. And NP Plus is as I understood the same principle but with a bit more N and P and less carbon?

 

[Bramzor]

Maybe @Lou Ekus can help us out.

I myself have bottomed out nutrients (NO3 and PO4) and no matter how much I feed I can’t get them up. I think the ClariSea automatic filter roller is taking too much out of the water as my skimmer has been nearly bone dry since installing the roller mat.

I picked up some Plus-NP a few weeks ago, however as mentioned earlier the effect cannot be measured entirely. I don’t think it’s hurt my system but can’t say it’s helped it either. Going to give it some more time and see if things change.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s indeed more difficult because you are unable to measure it with the standard tests. Same with Carbo-Calcium actually.
On the other side, it feels like a positive thing as you are no longer racing numbers but instead trying to read your corals.

I always had a pain with PO4 because of buffering it would not be detectable for weeks and than it would suddenly be too much. Also it does not mean that if it’s not detectable by the tests the algae aren’t using it already so... at the end it’s probably better when not being able to test it.

Still not sure how it interacts with other carbon sources like Carbo-Calcium for example. Because it seems that dosing All for reef combined with NP plus or bacto balance would be dosing 2 products which would otherwise need 8 dosing pumps (KH, Ca, Mg, A- elements, K+ elements, PO4, NO3 and Carbon) and all of this in a balanced way.

 

[Bramzor]

I don’t think that’s true from the description I read that they wrote, but it may be poorly written. It sounds purely organic to me, which is not necessarily a problem (except for measurement) but also may not be an advantage.

According to https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/en/control/np-bacto-balance.html ingredients it’s both organic and inorganic. But to be honest, I don’t even know the difference.

 

[Waynerock]

I had no idea this existed and Think It will help my low nutrient situation. Just ordered we will see if it’s all it’s cracked up to be

 

[Bramzor]

I had no idea this existed and Think It will help my low nutrient situation. Just ordered we will see if it’s all it’s cracked up to be

Which one? Bacto balance or the NP plus?
Sounds promising.

 

[Waynerock]

Which one? Bacto balance or the NP plus?
Sounds promising.

NP Plus. It sounds like it’s just enough to feed the corals and raise me levels a whole bunch. My tank has always had super low N’ and P’s and I did not want to throw my chemistry way outta wack

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One of the issues with dosing PO4 for example is that it gets buffered so it’s a pain to get stable in my experience.

So I do like the idea where you dose N and P in a balanced way together with carbon so you would end up with stable parameters. And that is how I interpret how bacto balance and np plus works. Bacto balance with the goal to lower PO4 and NO3 using carbon and dosing a limited amount for the corals in the same dose. And NP Plus is as I understood the same principle but with a bit more N and P and less carbon?

That's an assertion that doesn't necessarily follow from any particular mix or ratio of N and P. Different tanks have different needs for N and P. I'm not sure why a fixed ratio is even a good idea for every tank.

Also, I think you misunderstand the buffering of phosphate. if anything, it makes P far more stable than it would be without it. Exactly like a pH buffer stabilizes pH.

Finally, it's fine to link to any other place if there is a specific reason.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

According to https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/en/control/np-bacto-balance.html ingredients it’s both organic and inorganic. But to be honest, I don’t even know the difference.

Thanks for posting that. I think there must be translation issues because the tropic marin web site that I posted that claims the nutrients "are bound by an organic energy source " does not make sense for inorganic nutrients. Maybe Lou or Hans Werner can clarify. Maybe it has inorganic nutrients as well as nutrients that are "bound by an organic".

 

[Bramzor]

Thanks for posting that. I think there must be translation issues because the tropic marin web site that I posted that claims the nutrients "are bound by an organic energy source " does not make sense for inorganic nutrients. Maybe Lou or Hans Werner can clarify. Maybe it has inorganic nutrients as well as nutrients that are "bound by an organic".

Maybe this makes sense: (As I understood Plus-NP is similar to Bacto balance, only more nutrients)
“
Tropic Marin® Plus-NP provides these phosphates and nitrogen compounds in concentrations that are tailored to the corals’ needs. As they are bound by any n organic energy source, nitrogen and phosphates can be utilized by corals more efficiently than inorganic nutritional salt additives. This approach minimizes the loss of nutrients caused by denitrification and adsorption, prevents nutrient deficiency in the corals and restores growth.
“

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It tells me the product is organic. lol