Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

[Big E]

Bacto balance is a complete carbon dosing additive that while adding a carbon source to reduce nutrients it also has N & P so you don't bottom out either nutrient. It worked well for me for about 15 months but eventually suffered from the same issues as all carbon dosing sources do of limiting nitrate and P04 rising.

I believe NP plus is the same type of product but maybe without the same carbon source that promotes nutrient reduction.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hello,
Since I have developed these products I want to describe the ideas behind the products.

We want to make our products as easy to use and at the same time as safe as possible. The view at nutrients is very much a matter of personal opinion. In my eyes these opinions are not always correct. Acropora species and other SPS have a certain ecological physiology and certain demands in aquaria. Nuisance algae have a bit different demands. We want to offer safe N and P additives for different tanks with different stocks of fish and corals, mainly for use with our balanced calcium additives like Original Balling, Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef. These tanks tend to be rather on the low phosphate side.
We are just redoing our product for tanks with calcium reactors which adds only organic nitrogen and no phosphate because the calcium reactor filled with coral rubble usually supplies enough phosphate to the corals.

The nutrients in our N and P additives are a combination of organic and inorganic N and P. These nutrients are combined with an organic carbon additive. This seems contradictory at first glance but in my opinion it is not. With these products we want to introduce a dynamic equilibrium of nutrients. Let me explain this by the image of a bucket with an own faucet under a water faucet. If you open only the water faucet the bucket will be full somewhen and flow over. If you close the water faucet completely and open the bucket faucet it will run dry somewhen. In a dynamic equilibrium both faucets are opened to a certain degree. By mechanisms like increasing water pressure with rising water level in the bucket this increases the likelihood of a balanced flow of water through the bucket without running dry completely and without flowing over a lot. With some likelihood the water level in the bucket will stabilize at a certain level although water is added continuously. Small regulations of the water faucet or of the bucket faucet will result in only minor variations of the water level. This is the explanation of a dynamic equilibrium we want to create for nutrients.

The organic carbon source in my opinion has a second very positive effect. If you add inorganic ortho-phosphate to a tank low in phosphate, at first much of the phosphate is adsorbed to rocks, sand and gravel, all the calcareous materials in the tank. Only after these calcareous materials have reached a certain degree of saturation enough phosphate remains in the water to be tested and to nourish corals. The phosphate concentration suddenly jumps up although you have changed nothing with your phosphate additions. You stop phosphate addition, phosphate concentration decreases in the water but the phosphate adsorbed to calcareous materials remain in place. Nuisance algae and cyanobacteria start to grow at the expense of the adsorbed phosphate while the corals have no access to the adsorbed phosphate. These phosphate swings are amongst the worst things that can happen to your corals and to your tank because SPS are quite sensitive to phosphate swings. This has something to do with their rapid calcification which needs and consumes phosphate.

The role of the organic carbon source is to increase the growth of heterotrophic bacteria on the corals, the decoration and in the water and increase the incorporation of phosphate into bacterial biomass. Corals have direct access to the bacterial biomass growing on their surface and in their gastric cavity, and to bacterioplankton forming in the water. Much of the bacterial biomass growing on other surfaces will be eaten by grazers or forming secondary bacterioplankton by sloughing off. Both processes give the corals access to further nutrients. We have tried to find a organic carbon source that is most beneficial to the corals and maybe to the symbiotic bacteria growing on and in corals. In this way we have tried to "target feed" the corals with nutrients instead of saturating rocks and gravel with phosphate for algal growth.

That is a short description of the ideas and experiences behind our nutrient additives and we hope you agree that they work quite well.

 

[Bramzor]

Hello,
Since I have developed these products I want to describe the ideas behind the products.

We want to make our products as easy to use and at the same time as safe as possible. The view at nutrients is very much a matter of personal opinion. In my eyes these opinions are not always correct. Acropora species and other SPS have a certain ecological physiology and certain demands in aquaria. Nuisance algae have a bit different demands. We want to offer safe N and P additives for different tanks with different stocks of fish and corals, mainly for use with our balanced calcium additives like Original Balling, Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef. These tanks tend to be rather on the low phosphate side.
We are just redoing our product for tanks with calcium reactors which adds only organic nitrogen and no phosphate because the calcium reactor filled with coral rubble usually supplies enough phosphate to the corals.

The nutrients in our N and P additives are a combination of organic and inorganic N and P. These nutrients are combined with an organic carbon additive. This seems contradictory at first glance but in my opinion it is not. With these products we want to introduce a dynamic equilibrium of nutrients. Let me explain this by the image of a bucket with an own faucet under a water faucet. If you open only the water faucet the bucket will be full somewhen and flow over. If you close the water faucet completely and open the bucket faucet it will run dry somewhen. In a dynamic equilibrium both faucets are opened to a certain degree. By mechanisms like increasing water pressure with rising water level in the bucket this increases the likelihood of a balanced flow of water through the bucket without running dry completely and without flowing over a lot. With some likelihood the water level in the bucket will stabilize at a certain level although water is added continuously. Small regulations of the water faucet or of the bucket faucet will result in only minor variations of the water level. This is the explanation of a dynamic equilibrium we want to create for nutrients.

The organic carbon source in my opinion has a second very positive effect. If you add inorganic ortho-phosphate to a tank low in phosphate, at first much of the phosphate is adsorbed to rocks, sand and gravel, all the calcareous materials in the tank. Only after these calcareous materials have reached a certain degree of saturation enough phosphate remains in the water to be tested and to nourish corals. The phosphate concentration suddenly jumps up although you have changed nothing with your phosphate additions. You stop phosphate addition, phosphate concentration decreases in the water but the phosphate adsorbed to calcareous materials remain in place. Nuisance algae and cyanobacteria start to grow at the expense of the adsorbed phosphate while the corals have no access to the adsorbed phosphate. These phosphate swings are amongst the worst things that can happen to your corals and to your tank because SPS are quite sensitive to phosphate swings. This has something to do with their rapid calcification which needs and consumes phosphate.

The role of the organic carbon source is to increase the growth of heterotrophic bacteria on the corals, the decoration and in the water and increase the incorporation of phosphate into bacterial biomass. Corals have direct access to the bacterial biomass growing on their surface and in their gastric cavity, and to bacterioplankton forming in the water. Much of the bacterial biomass growing on other surfaces will be eaten by grazers or forming secondary bacterioplankton by sloughing off. Both processes give the corals access to further nutrients. We have tried to find a organic carbon source that is most beneficial to the corals and maybe to the symbiotic bacteria growing on and in corals. In this way we have tried to "target feed" the corals with nutrients instead of saturating rocks and gravel with phosphate for algal growth.

That is a short description of the ideas and experiences behind our nutrient additives and we hope you agree that they work quite well.

Sounds amazing. Can you explain a bit the difference between Bacto balance and NP Plus? Is NP Plus the same but targeted for ULNs?

 

[Hans-Werner]

The difference when adding NP-Bacto-Balance and Plus-NP is the amount of nutrients your fish and your system supplies. In my eyes the ideal reef tank has stable phosphate concentrations around 0.05 ppm, maybe even a little bit higher. The nitrate concentration should be no more than ten times the phosphate concentration, rather less.

NP-Bacto-Balance is applied when phosphate concentration is in the ideal range, 0.04 to 0.1 ppm phosphate. NP-Bacto-Balance is applied when the phosphate concentration is lower, less than 0.04 ppm.

NP-Bacto-Balance is stabilizing or decreasing the nutrient concentrations. Plus-NP, as the name states, adds more nutrients and is more on the net nutrient increase side. Sometimes you may have to switch from one product to the other.
If you have ultra low nutrients and you want to add some nutrients, Plus-NP is the choice, that is right.

 

[Big E]

The difference when adding NP-Bacto-Balance and Plus-NP is the amount of nutrients your fish and your system supplies. In my eyes the ideal reef tank has stable phosphate concentrations around 0.05 ppm, maybe even a little bit higher. The nitrate concentration should be no more than ten times the phosphate concentration, rather less.

NP-Bacto-Balance is applied when phosphate concentration is in the ideal range, 0.04 to 0.1 ppm phosphate. NP-Bacto-Balance is applied when the phosphate concentration is lower, less than 0.04 ppm.

NP-Bacto-Balance is stabilizing or decreasing the nutrient concentrations. Plus-NP, as the name states, adds more nutrients and is more on the net nutrient increase side. Sometimes you may have to switch from one product to the other.
If you have ultra low nutrients and you want to add some nutrients, Plus-NP is the choice, that is right.

What about when the balances become skewed? I used Bacto balance for 15 months on my full acropora dominant system. It worked well till the N03 had dropped to .25 and Po4 continued to rise above .18 and wouldn't stabilize.

My only recourse was to stop dosing and use GFO to drop the P04 and in turn my N03 rose back up into an acceptable line.

My goal in using your product was to not have to use GFO...........it failed long term. I haven't gone back to dosing Bacto balance for this reason. It was flawed as it limited nitrates over time which is very common with many stand alone carbon dosing regimes whether commercial or home made.

 

[Bramzor]

What about when the balances become skewed? I used Bacto balance for 15 months on my full acropora dominant system. It worked well till the N03 had dropped to .25 and Po4 continued to rise above .18 and wouldn't stabilize.

My only recourse was to stop dosing and use GFO to drop the P04 and in turn my N03 rose back up into an acceptable line.

My goal in using your product was to not have to use GFO...........it failed long term. I haven't gone back to dosing Bacto balance for this reason. It was flawed as it limited nitrates over time which is very common with many stand alone carbon dosing regimes whether commercial or home made.

My guess is that lowering the dosage would 1) raise NO3 and 2) lower PO4 so that would balance it right? Also as it’s not free in the tank but bound to a carbon measuring it would not always give a correct image.
Carbon is also not the best way to lower PO4 anyway but it could help dosing some NO3. As long as you do not have to raise PO4 yourself as this is a pain because of all the buffering, it would already be a win.

 

[Phyber]

I am running an ulns (not by choice) on my >1 year mixed reef. I can't get nutrients to a readable level.

I have been dosing aminos to help with corals, could I use this as well? Simultaneously?

 

[Hans-Werner]

What about when the balances become skewed? I used Bacto balance for 15 months on my full acropora dominant system. It worked well till the N03 had dropped to .25 and Po4 continued to rise above .18 and wouldn't stabilize.

Obviously the PO4 supply was above a range NP-Bacto-Balance could balance, maybe you used a calcium-reactor?
When PO4 is rising I recommend Elimi-NP or an amino acid product we will introduce in about 1/2 year (Interzoo fair).

In my opinion NO3 is not important for corals. If corals are low in nitrogen (N) they get very pale and colors may get quite bright. Other damages usually do not occur until the corals get really bleached. The first ones which will show damages and loose tissue are LPS. After adding amino acids or other nitrogen compounds corals regain color quite soon. So no matter what your nitrate test shows, corals are not short in nitrogen supply until they get pale. Only when this happens and you still have high phosphate concentrations, the balance is skewed.

I am running an ulns (not by choice) on my >1 year mixed reef. I can't get nutrients to a readable level.

I have been dosing aminos to help with corals, could I use this as well? Simultaneously?

Plus-NP adds nitrogen compounds and phosphates in a balanced ratio. This is an advantage compared to most amino acid products. Amino acids make corals show a darker pigmentation but may not prevent phosphate limitation.

I recommend to switch over to prevent interactions with the amino acid product like imbalanced nitrogen dosage, at least if your corals don't show signs of nitrogen limitation like pale colors.

However the nutrient levels may stay below a readable level. As long as the corals show improved growth, polyp extension and colors the nutrient supply works well.

 

[Big E]

Hans.
I don't use a calcium reactor.........the imbalance was due to the product not performing over months of use.
I should not have to continue to throw in more of your products if the Bacto balance worked like it's supposed to.

The bacto balance kept lowering nitrates over months of use........it wasn't kept stable

I see no reason to use any of those TM add on products when I can keep a balance for years with GFO for P04 and my skimmer and water changes keep nitrates in check.

I was looking for something that would work to eliminate using GFO.


I have no concerns over the nitrate level in reference to coral health but with it limiting it causes an imbalance with P04 continuing to rise without intervention with GFO. High phosphates is an issue for acroporas.

When your product was working okay it kept a balance, but over time the limited N03 caused an imbalance which is happening on the microbial level...............this has a negative impact on the corals as the P04 is not getting comsumed by bacteria and thus rises to levels that will slow coral growth.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Our products do not claim to add or stabilize NO3. We always talk about nitrogen concentrations. Like written above in my opinion nitrate is not necessary or even beneficial for corals. I am very well aware that organic substances will decrease nitrate concentration by different processes. But these processes in fact increase the quantity and usability of nitrogen compounds for corals. If you want to keep nitrate stable our products are not the right products. Our products are developed for corals.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

So let me get this straight: This product is designed to provide phosphate that is easier for corals to use that it is for algae to use? So, instead of dosing phosphates alone, or over feeding the fish, this will provide phosphate in a form that is less likely to grow nasty algae all over the place? Do I have that right? The nitrogen portion is essentially added as part of the process rather than for the corals to use?

If so, I’m down to try this out. I’m having a heck of a time keeping my corals happy with fish food alone. When I go to town feeding the fish, I also am watching algae take over my tank.

 

[Big E]

Our products do not claim to add or stabilize NO3. We always talk about nitrogen concentrations. Like written above in my opinion nitrate is not necessary or even beneficial for corals. I am very well aware that organic substances will decrease nitrate concentration by different processes. But these processes in fact increase the quantity and usability of nitrogen compounds for corals. If you want to keep nitrate stable our products are not the right products. Our products are developed for corals.

You can defend your product all you like and put words in my mouth, but the fact is the product didn't work as claimed. You're biased and I am not.....I evaluated the product and it's claims objectively over 15 months of use. I don't use a calcium reactor and only used your product with a skimmer. I had no other export systems involved to skew results or add variability.

I saw none of the benefits listed on your website and it didn't keep a balance as claimed---

NP-BACTO-BALANCE - Tropic Marin®

NP-BACTO-BALANCE acts to increase the incorporation of nutrients in additional biomass, reducing nitrate and phosphate concentrations in the aquarium water.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

 

[Bramzor]

You can defend your product all you like and put words in my mouth, but the fact is the product didn't work as claimed. You're biased and I am not.....I evaluated the product and it's claims objectively over 15 months of use. I don't use a calcium reactor and only used your product with a skimmer. I had no other export systems involved to skew results or add variability.

I saw none of the benefits listed on your website and it didn't keep a balance as claimed---

NP-BACTO-BALANCE - Tropic Marin®

NP-BACTO-BALANCE acts to increase the incorporation of nutrients in additional biomass, reducing nitrate and phosphate concentrations in the aquarium water.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

You stated that it was able to keep everything stable except NO3. If this is the case, this product for me would already be a big win. Dosing NO3 is easy and cheap and stable especially if you target a value over months so if that is the only thing that needs to be corrected over months of time, this product for me would ready be a big win.

So I do get that you don't like that the product wasn't working perfectly in your case but compared to all other solutions on the market, isn't it by far better than the alternatives? If not, please explain which alternatives work better over a long time to stabilize parameters which are by definition hard to stabilize like PO4.

This thread is not about "did this product solve all my issues" but more like, apparently it is possible to stabilize multiple parameters with just one dose. So the combination of Bacto Balance, GFO and NO3 dosing once a month would actually have made it perfectly stable?

 

[Hans-Werner]

So let me get this straight: This product is designed to provide phosphate that is easier for corals to use that it is for algae to use? So, instead of dosing phosphates alone, or over feeding the fish, this will provide phosphate in a form that is less likely to grow nasty algae all over the place?

That is not exactly the way it works. The combination of phosphates with organic and inorganic nitrogen compounds and an organic carbon source prevents the phosphates from being adsorbed to calcareous materials and in this ways helps to prevent the growth of nuisance algae at the expense of these adsorbed phosphates. This is an advantage over the addition of simple orthophosphate solutions.
The nitrogen part is also added as nutrient for the corals but for corals the most critical nutrient is the phosphates. Nitrogen is not as critical and in fact the symbiotic bacteria of the corals can make and supply some available nitrogen compounds themselves by N2 (dinitrogen gas) fixation.

I saw none of the benefits listed on your website and it didn't keep a balance as claimed---

Does this mean you saw improvements in the general condition, colors and growth of your Acropora corals after omitting NP-Bacto-Balance?

It seems to me you are angry on me. It was not my intention to put any words in your mouth, I only wanted to ask some questions, i. e. about your calcium supply. Maybe it is the language barrier. I am sorry.

 

[Big E]

You stated that it was able to keep everything stable except NO3. If this is the case, this product for me would already be a big win. Dosing NO3 is easy and cheap and stable especially if you target a value over months so if that is the only thing that needs to be corrected over months of time, this product for me would ready be a big win.

So I do get that you don't like that the product wasn't working perfectly in your case but compared to all other solutions on the market, isn't it by far better than the alternatives? If not, please explain which alternatives work better over a long time to stabilize parameters which are by definition hard to stabilize like PO4.

This thread is not about "did this product solve all my issues" but more like, apparently it is possible to stabilize multiple parameters with just one dose. So the combination of Bacto Balance, GFO and NO3 dosing once a month would actually have made it perfectly stable?

No, maybe I didn't communicate it correctly. It did Not keep P04 in check overtime...........It worked the same as vinegar, Nopox and other carbon dosing products. No3 was kept in check or lowered but P04 was not.......without intervening with GFO my P04 would have continued to rise to unacceptable levels.

For that reason I went back to using GFO with a skimmer........I've never had a problem with nitrates and wasn't concerned with them rising which I haven't experienced with my systems.

Like I said, in my experience it didn't stabilize parameters.

My goal is to find something that will work without having to dose nitrates or use GFO............this product isn't it nor is there one that does except Zeo which literally strips the nutrients to bare bones and then you still have to add multiple bottles of their products to add nutrients back.

This product is nothing new or different than other commercial brands.

If you think it's a silver bullet go ahead and try it for yourself.

 

[Bramzor]

No, maybe I didn't communicate it correctly. It did Not keep P04 in check overtime...........It worked the same as vinegar, Nopox and other carbon dosing products. No3 was kept in check or lowered but P04 was not.......without intervening with GFO my P04 would have continued to rise to unacceptable levels.

For that reason I went back to using GFO with a skimmer........I've never had a problem with nitrates and wasn't concerned with them rising which I haven't experienced with my systems.

Like I said, in my experience it didn't stabilize parameters.

My goal is to find something that will work without having to dose nitrates or use GFO............this product isn't it nor is there one that does except Zeo which literally strips the nutrients to bare bones and then you still have to add multiple bottles of their products to add nutrients back.

This product is nothing new or different than other commercial brands.

If you think it's a silver bullet go ahead and try it for yourself.

I think we are getting there. You mention vinegar and nopox which is indeed a carbon source. Now what I understand from carbon sources is that they are used for lowering nitrates. One of the side effects is that it needs PO4 to lower the nitrates so it's somewhat connected. But carbon can be used in a lot of ways and I personally do not use it for lowering anything, although I do use it. Please see this movie which starts at 30:00 and it only takes 5 minutes. You can watch the full movie afterwards as I think it helps explaining the chemistry in an easy to understand way:

I have BTW 0 experience in chemistry so I'm the ideal person to explain it in an easy way with lots of shortcuts.
Carbon is also used (especially in Tropic Marin products) to bind with other chemicals which helps the creation of products that include lots of chemicals. A good example is the "All For Reef" product which is a way to combine KH, Ca, Mg and trace elements in one dosing solution. Yes it will not balance everything perfectly but hell, it solves a problem that many people had over years and dosing things independently causes other issues again so nothing that corrections or WC cannot fix over time.
What makes it harder using these products is to understand that the tests we are using only tests for specific parts. One of the (in my mind) biggest failures is that we measure NO3 and PO4 which is a flaw that exists probably for years. Now that these tests become more precise, the side effect is that we focus on these numbers way too much which only causes more issues as we are trying to correct dosing other stuff like PO4 solutions and NO3 solutions.
The complex part of it is that the elements dosed are N and P which are the things corals use. These things will also not show up in normal hobby grade tests, ICP-OES tests however does show P I think. That is why there also is confusion when people compare hobby grade tests with ICP-OES tests and figure out they don't add up.

Although I was a huge fan of testing parameters all the time to keep them stable, I completely changed this mindset over time and are now testing as less as possible. That is why products that try to balance things out (keep elements there so corals don't die without growing lots of algae) are products I like. Even though over time it changes parameters like PO4 and NO3. If that happens, do small corrects, add some NO3 or very small number of GFO and things will balance themselves out. Don't aim for one product doing everything. It's way better to have 5 different techniques (combination of a carbon, scrubber, gfo, skimmer, ...) to balance something out over time.

The goal in the end is that an aquarium should be the thing that balances out itself. Nature is very good at balancing things, for example the algae are there to do that after we screw things up when dosing PO4 or way too much food. Not some chemicals or whatever as it is way too easy to overdo it like with carbon. Use carbon for the right reason, not just an easy way to export nutrients because it doesn't. Carbon is NOT a way to export PO4. It does lower it a little when lowering NO3 but it's not made for it. If lowering PO4. is what you want, the easiest way is dosing an Fe element as it will bind with PO4 and skim it out or use GFO. Or wait for corals to grow because more corals = more PO4 consumption.

Let's say that it did balance out every parameter in your tank. Then it would still fail for someone else because he might have more corals consuming more PO4 or less leaving too much PO4.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I got a C in chemistry while in college so I need things dumber down for me:

It would seem that all of the chemistry here is designed to make the phosphate mostly available to the corals and not for the nuisance algae, rocks, and sand. Do I have that correct?

So, over feeding or dosing commonly available phosphate products makes phosphate available to everything; corals, algae, rocks, and sand.

I can accept that over the long haul, its going to need some human intervention as phosphate levels will slowly creep up if your corals aren’t using them up and you don’t adjust the dosing.

I ordered some on eBay as I can’t find a single place online to order from.

 

[Hans-Werner]

It would seem that all of the chemistry here is designed to make the phosphate mostly available to the corals and not for the nuisance algae, rocks, and sand. Do I have that correct?

So, over feeding or dosing commonly available phosphate products makes phosphate available to everything; corals, algae, rocks, and sand.

I can accept that over the long haul, its going to need some human intervention as phosphate levels will slowly creep up if your corals aren’t using them up and you don’t adjust the dosing.

Yes, this describes it quite well.

 

[Big E]

I got a C in chemistry while in college so I need things dumber down for me:

It would seem that all of the chemistry here is designed to make the phosphate mostly available to the corals and not for the nuisance algae, rocks, and sand. Do I have that correct?

So, over feeding or dosing commonly available phosphate products makes phosphate available to everything; corals, algae, rocks, and sand.

I can accept that over the long haul, its going to need some human intervention as phosphate levels will slowly creep up if your corals aren’t using them up and you don’t adjust the dosing.

I ordered some on eBay as I can’t find a single place online to order from.

Yes that explains it as described by the company, but it works no different than Nopox or others. I used vinegar for 2+ years and the results were the same as this product. I had to intervene with GFO.............the same with NOPOX which I have also tried on and off.

I've kept acropora dominant systems for twenty years and GFO and a skimmer has worked the best for me. The carbon dosing products always led to the same results.

I don't like the shotgun approach using a myriad of export tools.. makes no sense and leads to poor results long term.

I'm offering honest objective feedback....I've documented this for years using these additives and am only sharing to help others. These aren't some shoot from the hip opinions.

There was no faster growth or better colors..........I've got hundreds of pictures to prove it as well as visual scrutiny on a daily basis.

There is only one person I know of that has documented his (bacto) results over a period of a year or more (on US forums) and his results were the same. If you think there's some special P04 only available to corals you're kidding yourself.

I'm not trying to bash Tropic Marin but giving you honest feedback.......do what you like with it or experiment on your own. Feel free to pm me and I can give you more feedback. It's pointless to go back and forth anymore in this thread.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Yes that explains it as described by the company, but it works no different than Nopox or others. I used vinegar for 2+ years and the results were the same as this product. I had to intervene with GFO.............the same with NOPOX which I have also tried on and off.

I've kept acropora dominant systems for twenty years and GFO and a skimmer has worked the best for me. The carbon dosing products always led to the same results.

I don't like the shotgun approach using a myriad of export tools.. makes no sense and leads to poor results long term.

I'm offering honest objective feedback....I've documented this for years using these additives and am only sharing to help others. These aren't some shoot from the hip opinions.

There was no faster growth or better colors..........I've got hundreds of pictures to prove it as well as visual scrutiny on a daily basis.

There is only one person I know of that has documented his (bacto) results over a period of a year or more (on US forums) and his results were the same. If you think there's some special P04 only available to corals you're kidding yourself.

I'm not trying to bash Tropic Marin but giving you honest feedback.......do what you like with it or experiment on your own. Feel free to pm me and I can give you more feedback. It's pointless to go back and forth anymore in this thread.

Didn’t you say that it worked for you for 15 months?