Trouble keeping a Porcupine puffer for the first dew weeks - bacterial?

[zaidalin79]

Was wondering if I could pick your brain on a puffer related conundrum. I absolutely love porcupine puffers but I'm having trouble getting one through the initial addition process. They seem to do well for a week or so and then they get a milky white film over their eyes, lay on the bottom or hide, and eventually pass. One I really thought was going to make it I was treating him with Neoplex. I did the three treatments every two days as a 15 minute dip with alternating fresh water dips. His eyes were clearing. He was still eating and everything and then just dead.

I read that they are prone to bacterial infections and parasites. I guess what I am wondering is if they are coming in with this or if it's something in my tank. Is there something I can treat them with in a qt before hand? I've got a 120 tank with some tangs, a trigger, an eel, a couple wrasses and some smaller fish. I have not seen anyone bothering the puffers. Other than the powder blue showing ich every once in awhile I'm not having issues with the other fish. So I know ich is in the tank but I am just managing it. I feed frozen foods and add vita chem regularly. Tank had been running about 10 months now. I have high nitrates cause I overfeed. I do 20% water changes and vacuum out the sand weekly. Any ideas would be most welcome.

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Since the late 1950's puffers and other "bay fish" have been characterized (fairly or not) as being disease-ridden. Early aquarists like Robert Straughan noted more disease issues with porcupines, puffers, boxfish and the like than with more reef associated fish. They concluded it was due to them living in "polluted" in shore habitats. I'm not sure I agree 100% with that, as some species of porcupine are reef-associated. Still, the whole group is prone to ich, and they can get other copepod and trematode parasites that typical reef fish do not get.

You'll hear that these fish can't tolerate copper treatments. That isn't quite true. They are sensitive to the old school copper/citric acid formulation, but the amine bound coppers are fine. I use Coppersafe.

The first step is to get a good quality fish. Buying a half-starved porcupinefish from a chain pet store isn't going to work well. You need to find one with a short supply chain - one that was recently collected, OR one that has gone through a dealer's quarantine process (there are some good online ones).

I would handle a porcupine like this: Add it to a biologically stable quarantine tank, whose salinity matches the tank the fish came from. If purchased from a pet store, give it a 5 minute FW dip as you add it to the tank. If it was shipped to you, acclimate it to the QT, then 48 hours later, give it a 5 minute FW dip. Then, start a 30 day treatment with Coppersafe. After that, change the water to remove the copper and give the fish 2 treatments of Prazipro, one week apart. Wait two weeks with no medications, just to ensure the fish is doing well before adding it to your DT.

That said, if you are doing "ich management" in your DT, with a powder blue that cycles through with ich from time to time, you may never be able to get a porcupine in there, as it may throw the management off and create a full blown ich infection....

Jay

 

[zaidalin79]

Since the late 1950's puffers and other "bay fish" have been characterized (fairly or not) as being disease-ridden. Early aquarists like Robert Straughan noted more disease issues with porcupines, puffers, boxfish and the like than with more reef associated fish. They concluded it was due to them living in "polluted" in shore habitats. I'm not sure I agree 100% with that, as some species of porcupine are reef-associated. Still, the whole group is prone to ich, and they can get other copepod and trematode parasites that typical reef fish do not get.

You'll hear that these fish can't tolerate copper treatments. That isn't quite true. They are sensitive to the old school copper/citric acid formulation, but the amine bound coppers are fine. I use Coppersafe.

The first step is to get a good quality fish. Buying a half-starved porcupinefish from a chain pet store isn't going to work well. You need to find one with a short supply chain - one that was recently collected, OR one that has gone through a dealer's quarantine process (there are some good online ones).

I would handle a porcupine like this: Add it to a biologically stable quarantine tank, whose salinity matches the tank the fish came from. If purchased from a pet store, give it a 5 minute FW dip as you add it to the tank. If it was shipped to you, acclimate it to the QT, then 48 hours later, give it a 5 minute FW dip. Then, start a 30 day treatment with Coppersafe. After that, change the water to remove the copper and give the fish 2 treatments of Prazipro, one week apart. Wait two weeks with no medications, just to ensure the fish is doing well before adding it to your DT.

That said, if you are doing "ich management" in your DT, with a powder blue that cycles through with ich from time to time, you may never be able to get a porcupine in there, as it may throw the management off and create a full blown ich infection....

Jay

Thank you - the puffer should be able to survive the ich though as long as he is healthy before I add him right? These ones always seem to get a milky covering over both eyes, so I thought either parasite or bacterial infection?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you - the puffer should be able to survive the ich though as long as he is healthy before I add him right? These ones always seem to get a milky covering over both eyes, so I thought either parasite or bacterial infection?

No - I worry that the puffer will not be able to "manage" ich well. I think it will proceed to a full blown infection too easily. The white cloudy eye (they normally have a green sheen) can be three possible issues; flukes, protozoans or bacterial, in roughly descending order of how common I seem to see those causes.

Jay

 

[zaidalin79]

Would the fresh water dips have alleviated the flukes though? How do you identify protozoa versus bacterial?

 

[DrZoidburg]

Some protozoa you can just barely see like ich. Other ways would be noticeable characteristics like fish behavior or actual signs of infection. A real good way would be skin scrapes or excrement on a microscope. Also freshwater dips are not always 100%.

 

[zaidalin79]

What does it sounds like if both eyes are completely covered in milky white film?

 

[DrZoidburg]

Could be bacterial eye infection. It could also be flukes, not all flukes can be seen without some kind of magnification. Parasitic worms, or even fungus. I can't see what you see it is hard to say anything for sure.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Would the fresh water dips have alleviated the flukes though? How do you identify protozoa versus bacterial?

FW dips alleviate marine flukes, but it is possible that these "bay fish" can arrive with brackish water flukes that are more resistant to FW. Also, FW is never 100%, so the flukes will return.
There isn't any easy way without a microscope to tell between bacterial and protozoan infections, they can be similar with gross visual symptoms. Very often, you will have protozoans that cause secondary bacterial infections, so you can have both at the same time. I always treat for protozoans first, as primary bacterial infections are pretty rare.

Jay