Trying to determine ICK or Velvet and next steps

[mehaffydr]

Ill try to not too long winded but some background info.
Tank 1100 gallons approx 1300 gallon system
Temp 78
SALT 34.9
PH 8.10-8.25
ALK 7.6
CA 525
MG 1509

I built this tank (see build thread) if interested not necessary
Back in April I had Velvet in my sytem. I put all living fish in QT with Copper and let system go fallow for 80 days.
Moved fish into DT and for months no problems. I gradually added fish QT'ing each time. With Copper!
I then noticed a couple months ago my Blue Hippo had a couple white spots and I thought ICK but it was late and I couldn't be sure. The next morning I was on a flight so it was about 3 days before I returned and there were no spots so I thought it must have not been ICK. That was like in AUG.No issues what so ever since then. Recently I purchased some fish from what I believe to be a reputable company who Quarantines fish with Copper and Prazi and I thought rather than go through this I would pay someone with more experience to do it. I am not giving the name because I have no way of knowing the origin of the problem and am not looking to bash anyone.

Now today. I have a fish that was sold to me as a powder Brown but it looks more like a White Cheek or some type of Hybrid I received this fish mid DEC and after acclimation put it in the display. Maybe a mistake but I did not QT because I thought I bought a QT'd fish. The day after Christmas I noticed some white spots on this fish but No others in the tank. after a few days they were gone so again like with the Hippo I didn't know what to think.

Now today the spots are back and more of them. Also what has me really freaked out is it appears to maybe be swimming at a power head. This is hard to be sure because I have 9 power heads in the tank so its hard for a fish to avoid them also.

If I have ICK I would like to do HYPO because catching these fish with approx 600+ lbs of rock work would be difficult to impossible but if Velvet I will tear apart and remove every single rock to save these fish.
I am attaching pictures and Videos Please help me figure this out develop a course of action and save these fish.

@vetteguy53081​

@Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

Pics are fuzzy and hard to make out and video clear but fish moving around makes it hard to see
While the fits appear large like tomonts and even look like lympho although not from what I see, may be mucus from previous parasite
Clearer pics under white lighting always best
Do you have a quarantine tank available or set up?
Also note calcium, and mag very high and alk low
What is your current
Ammonia- nitrate level?

desired :
Alk 8-11dkh
Ca- 400-440
Mag - 1300-1350

Cease dosing until these numbers drop

 

[mehaffydr]

Thanks for looking. Its really hard to get pics darn fish just won't stand still. Thats why I thought the video might help
I will try better lighting
Nitrate .6
I'm not sure why CA and MAG have been steadily rising I am not adding any just what tank gets from salt mix. using Reef Crystals.
I am dosing some ALK I am dosing with Apex so I can easily increase that.
I have been doing a lot of water changes lately to try and get PO4 down as it has been extremely high. Registering 200 on Hanna ULR phosphorus which is the highest reading were it tops out at so not really sure what the real number is.

I do have multiple Quarantine tanks set up and ready to go but with the large tank and rock I think it will be extremely difficult to catch fish. But I am willing to break down entire tank if required. Just really wanted some help with identification before I tear it all apart.

One other note there are approx 15 fish in the tank and this one fish is the only one currently affected.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for looking. Its really hard to get pics darn fish just won't stand still. Thats why I thought the video might help
I will try better lighting
Nitrate .6
I'm not sure why CA and MAG have been steadily rising I am not adding any just what tank gets from salt mix. using Reef Crystals.
I am dosing some ALK I am dosing with Apex so I can easily increase that.
I have been doing a lot of water changes lately to try and get PO4 down as it has been extremely high. Registering 200 on Hanna ULR phosphorus which is the highest reading were it tops out at so not really sure what the real number is.

I do have multiple Quarantine tanks set up and ready to go but with the large tank and rock I think it will be extremely difficult to catch fish. But I am willing to break down entire tank if required. Just really wanted some help with identification before I tear it all apart.

One other note there are approx 15 fish in the tank and this one fish is the only one currently affected.

From your verbal description, I was pretty sure it was ich, but then in looking at the photo and video, I'm not sure. They aren't super clear (tough to get good photos, I know) but the spots on the tang seem too large. Since it is the only fish with spots, I would be inclined to wait and see if spots show up on any other fish, and if they do, then consider hypo. At this point, I can't rule out lymphocystis, but the swimming in the powerhead isn't consistent with that.

Jay

 

[mehaffydr]

Jay, Vetteguy good evening I worked to get better pics with better light fish still moves a lot so a little difficult to get good pics but I think these are better. White light and Cannon camera not Iphone.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, Vetteguy good evening I worked to get better pics with better light fish still moves a lot so a little difficult to get good pics but I think these are better. White light and Cannon camera not Iphone.

The spots still seem a bit too large for ich, but maybe? I don't see any spots on the sailfin tang.

You said in the first posts that the spots come and go - is that still happening? If they are changing numbers and locations, then I think you have to call it ich and consider doing hypo.

Here is something I wrote up a few weeks ago about hypo:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay Hemdal

 

[brandon429]

Curious Vette why ammonia would be ascertained in this troubleshoot, we can see from the pics the system is stacked in aged live rock/and there aren't any cases of post cycled reefs failing to control ammonia at perfectly normal levels as long as they're kept wet? this is also among the larger dilution reefs on the board as well, it seems ammonia is not an issue for any reef tank at any stage of troubleshooting/the request makes it seem like some reefs might fail to control their ammonia inside toxicity ranges>

I like to read the fish forum to watch troubleshoots is why I noticed that input request

 

[brandon429]

I'm legit curious if there are times cycling noncontrol (any failure to endogenously control ammonia and nitrite after a cycle) has any implication in disease expression is why asking. in the new tank forum we turn out cycled tanks like a production line nowadays, reading over here is the maturity inspection for tanks beyond 8 mos old/critical % outcome tracking exists here as a basic lookback on overall cycling factors or nonfactors. include nitrate in the query, if there's ever a time high or low nitrate is implicated in disease outbreaks by pattern cycle umpires would like to know.

if someone responds back: yes my ammonia is .5 ppm we just roll with the statement as a factor?

the current advice we use is that a cycle is close-ended and never undoes after establishment, causing ammonia and nitrite never to be needed to test for ever again after cycle end date. <---applies to display reef tank salinities not necessarily quarantine tanks or hyposalinity holdings.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

I would look at fish behavior are they shaking thier head alot (sometimes indicates Velvet)

Either way you will most likely have to break down the tank to get the phosphates under control.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

I'm legit curious if there are times cycling noncontrol (any failure to endogenously control ammonia and nitrite after a cycle) has any implication in disease expression is why asking. in the new tank forum we turn out cycled tanks like a production line nowadays, reading over here is the maturity inspection for tanks beyond 8 mos old/critical % outcome tracking exists here as a basic lookback on overall cycling factors or nonfactors. include nitrate in the query, if there's ever a time high or low nitrate is implicated in disease outbreaks by pattern cycle umpires would like to know.

if someone responds back: yes my ammonia is .5 ppm we just roll with the statement as a factor?

the current advice we use is that a cycle is close-ended and never undoes after establishment, causing ammonia and nitrite never to be needed to test for ever again after cycle end date. <---applies to display reef tank salinities not necessarily quarantine tanks or hyposalinity holdings.

Its possible for ammonia to fuel the algae growth as green algae is more efficient in consuming the ammonia before the bacteria in the rocks can. Usually this would be caused by bad feeding/cleaning habbits or something like a large fish or dying. Otherwise the algae is being fueled by phosphates. Sources, ro/di/ , bad salt mix/, overfeeding, or rocks are bound up with phosphats..

Either way most likely there are decreased levels of dissolved O2 levels in an algae farm or it has occured and is rebounding could that playing into it as well.

 

[brandon429]

the inference is that ammonia can drift out of spec in some reefs, factoring into disease expression

has to reach nearly toxic levels for that to happen, shifts in the hundredths ppm nh3 isn't going to be implicated in disease expression I'd think

I would need to see an instance of a calibrated seneye or hach meter showing nh3 noncontrol in any reef setting to believe post-cycle reef tanks allow toxic buildup of free ammonia enough to trigger disease. nitrite included, I claim its neutral in the matter for display tanks

Ill offer a ten dollar paypal bounty on the proof to the first web poster who can link demonstrable proof of nh3 noncontrol in a post cycle reef tank. has to be digital that way nobody gets to flub a fake read and there also has to be an accompanying recent tank shot to show if system is in distress the same way organisms that lose kidney control are immediately, obviously distressed.

 

[brandon429]

the ammonia will be uptaken to show a marked consistency, when sampled digitally as nh3, whether or not the tank is bare of algae or not. ammonia output does not have to increase to support loads of algae. algae will get feed even if bioloading from fish or collective respiration in the tank stays fairly consistent. this is garnered from the current algae challenges we see in the nuisance algae forum + all seneye readings posted to the site. not one ever showed nh3 noncontrol and in all cases the fish and tank were acting normal, not distressed.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

Not following , you need proof a dead big fish can cause an ammonia spike or you don't think algae can consume the ammonia. I don't think this tanks issue is the ammonia spike but its a potential culprit. I do think hypoxic areas in the tank occur as the algae blooms and dies are occuring in any tank with rampant hair algae. I do think lower 02 levels have some effects on fish . this Steady consumption rate and seneye/hatch readings are telling us what exactly , that the uptake rate is constant. the total uptake is the sum of all the bacteria and algae utilizing the ammonia so if the ratio of those 2 changes it doesnt mean the sum uptake could not still be a constant. Nothing normal about a reef thats full of green hair algae. Its most likely got phosphate issues and take a look what happens to the fish in any lake with out of control algae and phosphates, the fish die.

 

[frizzayyyyreef]

Whatever it is keep them fat feed and feed some more ….nori shrimp whatever I found out in 7 years after living with ich or velvet the best method is keep them fat and keep them eating most of the time they can beat it that way just imo feed them buggers till you see the stomachs pop!

 

[brandon429]

here's how I think ammonia control applies: at no time after a cycle does it drift out of spec in normal runnings. We wouldnt think a poster has left dead fish in the tank unstated if they want troubleshooting advice, so given the tendency to remove dead animals we're eliminating two factors here in the disease troubleshoot: ammonia and nitrite

because to claim otherwise means a cycle can undo, past it's done date. When Vette asked to see ammonia nitrite nitrate levels that's implying the cycle wasn't fully able in a tank that mature. I was willing to put out a burger n fries bounty on the proof that all reef displays control their ammonia within very tight rangers after the cycle, so minor variances in feeding and daily respiration rates aren't going to factor into a disease prep, at least for ammonia and nitrite.

 

[brandon429]

the tank has six hundred pounds of live rock removed my ammonia concern immediately

 

[mehaffydr]

Good evening and thank you too all who are helping me get through this difficult situation. Brandon you are correct there is 0 Ammonia and Nitrite. I did test tonight just to verify with Salifert test kit. No fish have died in this tank and I sure want to keep it that way. I do have very high Phosphate and I am sure this is because I reused old dried rock from old system that had been in use for about 10 years without proper cleaning (I wont make that mistake again) Ok on to tonight's observation. The Scopas tang now has many spots that look like he was sprinkled with salt but they are smaller than the spots on the White Cheek. I was also able to get better pics tonight had more time. At this time I think Hypo is my best option I have read other threads and Jay's article. I have RODI water ready to start water changes just wanted and actually started tonight lowering from 35 to 33.5, Is there any logical reason that I should not proceed with the Hypo?

 

[mehaffydr]

I also spent a couple hours catching as many snails and hermits as I could and they are in a 20 gallon for 76 day fallow QT along with a large brittle star some mushrooms and Paly's. I have caulerpa in my refugium. Will that survive Hypo or do I need to remove it.

 

[damsels are not mean]

Nothing normal about a reef thats full of green hair algae.

Bare rock with light and any measurable amount of regularly added nutrients is gonna be full of green hair algae.

 

[mehaffydr]

OK with the Scopas showing spots looking like ICK I have decided that right now HYPO is my best option. Long term I will be ordering some real live rock from Tampa Bay saltwater to get the most diverse amount of organisms possible but at this time that is not going to help my fish and I don't want to destroy the entire rockscape to catch 15 fish in 1100 gallons of water. I am also implementing a new level of Biosecurity. I have started ordering equipment ( I'm sure BRS loves this plan) and I will have duplicates of all tools and equipment so that I have 1 set in Quarantine room and 1 set for DT. I have lived through Velvet and I am just glad this is not that or I would be devastated. At least with ICK there is a path for success. Yesterday I started by setting a a 20 gallon tank for Inverts and the small amount of coral I do have. That will go fallow for 76+ days no exception. I have been catching all of the snails and hermits I can find and what a chore that is.

There may actually be a blessing in this because I am going to do so much water change I just may get my Phosphates under control.

Yesterday dropped salinity down to 33.5 and tonight dropped to 31.4, Luckily I have a 150GPD RODI so I should be able to make enough water to get this done in a few days.

Question Jay: I am willing to go as long as it takes. I see where you recommend 30 days is there any benefit to going longer as I am more than willing to extend out to 45 or more if needed. Also would extending be detrimental to the fish?