Trying to fix (VERY) high nitrates, but zero phosphates without massive water changes. Should I go ATS or Sulfur reactor?

[magicstix]

So for some time I've been trying to get the nitrates in a 40 gallon down after a crash, but no matter what I tried, the test kit seemed to always show the darkest shade of red, indicating > 50 ppm.

Even a massive 50% water change didn't seem to fix the problem.

Frustrated, I finally sent a sample away for testing with ATI to see exactly what my water was doing, and the results that came back were insane: Nitrates were at 1016 ppm!!

Now, I'm not sure how much stock I can put in such a reading, given that I have a purple tang and flame angel in the tank that are doing absolutely fine (inverts and corals are of course gone save a few bristleworms), but the fact still remains that my amateur kits are pegged out.

I don't want to tear down the tank and start over, but the logistics of multiple massive water changes are also intractable. My RO/DI unit is downstairs in the basement, I don't have enough containers to move 40G of saltwater upstairs, and even if I did, my back would never be able to handle it (I barely pulled off the 50% water change). Anything short of a 100% water change seems like it wouldn't even be worth it to try, as even 3x 50% water changes would leave me with 250 ppm of nitrates (assuming I survived it).

So I'm left trying to salvage the water in the tank as is.

I bought both a small Icecap ATS and a Korallin sulfur denitrator, but I don't want to put too many new things on the tank at once.

So I was hoping for some advice on which to try first.

I know algae scrubbers seem to need some phosphate to work, and my tank tested at 0.03 ppm. I'm not sure this is enough to feed a scrubber.

On the flip side, I've read sulfur reactors can be very finicky to dial in, but the benefit (or drawback) is they don't need phosphates.


So which would be the better approach, to go with the sulfur denitrator since phosphates are fine, or to go with the ATS?

I'm leaning towards the ATS since it seems to be a lot easier to setup and maintain, but can an ATS actually run on nitrates alone should I feed phosphate to make the scrubber work better?

 

[Pistondog]

Try to get a better nitrate test level by diluting.

 

[Garf]

You’ll need phosphates to get the scrubber working to lower nitrate. However, that’s easy to dose if you choose that route. I wouldn’t underestimate the power of water changes though.

 

[magicstix]

You’ll need phosphates to get the scrubber working to lower nitrate. However, that’s easy to dose if you choose that route. I wouldn’t underestimate the power of water changes though.

Is there a specific NO3 to PO4 ratio I should be shooting for?

 

[Garf]

Is there a specific NO3 to PO4 ratio I should be shooting for?

Not in my experience. As long as the nutrients are present, algae will do there dangest to sequester it. I think you need to raise phosphate anyway to get out of Dino territory.

 

[Zhubbell]

When doing water changes, I would do some serious substrate siphoning too - maybe do a third of the tank each water change, move rocks, really get in there and spend an hour vacuuming your sand bed.
This will hopefully get rid of a lot of the sources of nitrate.
What else are you running? I would t go with a scrubber personally given your situation.
Do you have a skimmer? Running GFO & Carbon?
I also just start dosing microbacter7 and Reef biofuel (about 1/4-1/3 dose recommended on bottle), as I’ve been battle high nitrates after a crash when my son pulled the thermostat probe without me knowing. Providing a Carbon source so to facilitate the break down of nitrates was extremely beneficial to my tank, I could see results in the first day Even.

 

[TCoach]

Do you have a LfS that makes salt water? If so, get the water from them and do a 100% change. Maybe neighbor can help carry the water in with your back issues.

otherwise you have a very tough battle.

 

[magicstix]

Do you have a LfS that makes salt water? If so, get the water from them and do a 100% change. Maybe neighbor can help carry the water in with your back issues.

otherwise you have a very tough battle.

Making the salt water wouldn't be particularly hard. I have a trash can in the basement that I used when I did the 50% water change. The problem is moving 500 pounds of water without making an incredible mess and electrocuting myself (with the 50% water change, I found out rather painfully that GFCIs only trigger if the current leaks to ground, not if it goes through you back to neutral). I also had a hard time with the logistics of managing that much water. I only have so many 5 gallon jugs.

If I were so inclined to do a full water change, I'd just restart the tank, but I don't really have anywhere to put my tang and flame angel while it cycles.

 

[magicstix]

When doing water changes, I would do some serious substrate siphoning too - maybe do a third of the tank each water change, move rocks, really get in there and spend an hour vacuuming your sand bed.
This will hopefully get rid of a lot of the sources of nitrate.
What else are you running? I would t go with a scrubber personally given your situation.
Do you have a skimmer? Running GFO & Carbon?
I also just start dosing microbacter7 and Reef biofuel (about 1/4-1/3 dose recommended on bottle), as I’ve been battle high nitrates after a crash when my son pulled the thermostat probe without me knowing. Providing a Carbon source so to facilitate the break down of nitrates was extremely beneficial to my tank, I could see results in the first day Even.

Skimmer is currently on the fritz. I'm currently debating whether to try and fix it (again) or just buy a new one. It's a HOB Reef Octopus but it seems to get clogged or otherwise gummed up way too easily. I've already taken it apart and cleaned it with 20% vinegar once already, but it seemed to only last a month or so before it stopped making bubbles and started not draining well. I've since added a sump to the system, so I'm debating whether to get an in-sump skimmer.

As for GFO, I usually run chemipure in the sump (which contains some GFO in addition to carbon). Silicate test came back elevated, so it looks like it's time to change it (I also recently replaced my RO/DI filters, so I'm guessing that's why silicates came up in the first place).

 

[Kodski]

Is there any way you could go out and buy a 55 gallon brute trashcan and set it next to the tank? This way you can mix enough water for a 100% water change without hauling buckets up stairs? You could even use a small pump to mix the water and then a few feet of silicone or vinyl tubing to pump the water back into the aquarium.

 

[Gtinnel]

Is there a specific NO3 to PO4 ratio I should be shooting for?

If you are trying to match natural sea water the Redfield ratio I believe is 16 nitrate to 1 phosphate.

Obviously you are not trying to get your phosphate to 1/16 of what your nitrate currently is. I would start dosing phosphate and run the ATS to start lowering them. Then just keep dosing the phosphate as the algea removes them both. That in conjunction with water changes should be a good way to deal with the problem.

 

[Gedxin]

Have you tried Waste Away by Dr Tim? I haven't used it personally, but have seen good reviews that it significantly reduces nitrates. Based on your test values, you definitely seem in the 'oh crap, chemicals are needed' category.

 

[Kodski]

Have you tried Waste Away by Dr Tim? I haven't used it personally, but have seen good reviews that it significantly reduces nitrates. Based on your test values, you definitely seem in the 'oh crap, chemicals are needed' category.

I've used Waste Away before on my tank in combination with Dr Tim's Re-Fresh to help with cyano. In my case I had bottomed out my nutrients. I'd recommend using them for anyone in a similar situation. Not sure how well it would work in this case.

 

[TCoach]

Making the salt water wouldn't be particularly hard. I have a trash can in the basement that I used when I did the 50% water change. The problem is moving 500 pounds of water without making an incredible mess and electrocuting myself (with the 50% water change, I found out rather painfully that GFCIs only trigger if the current leaks to ground, not if it goes through you back to neutral). I also had a hard time with the logistics of managing that much water. I only have so many 5 gallon jugs.

Can you use/borrow a pump to push the water up from your basement w/o having to do a bunch of bucket runs?

If I were so inclined to do a full water change, I'd just restart the tank, but I don't really have anywhere to put my tang and flame angel while it cycles.

I would do a rip clean. Put the fish in a bucket, live rock in other buckets with water (they are your filtration). Then drain the tank, rinse our the sand, and then reload the tank. I did that with why 92 corner tank and did not cause a cycle (monitored with a Seneye). See my build thread.

Also see: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/120-gallon-rip-clean.679588/

@brandon429 can also help guide you as he has a lot of experience with this. I 100% believe that this is the only true way to fix and reset your tank.

BTW, do you know why your NO3 is so out of normal?

 

[magicstix]

Can you use/borrow a pump to push the water up from your basement w/o having to do a bunch of bucket runs?


I would do a rip clean. Put the fish in a bucket, live rock in other buckets with water (they are your filtration). Then drain the tank, rinse our the sand, and then reload the tank. I did that with why 92 corner tank and did not cause a cycle (monitored with a Seneye). See my build thread.

Also see: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/120-gallon-rip-clean.679588/

@brandon429 can also help guide you as he has a lot of experience with this. I 100% believe that this is the only true way to fix and reset your tank.

BTW, do you know why your NO3 is so out of normal?

No idea why the NO3 is so high. I feel like if it were actually 1000 ppm (which is actually 1 part per THOUSAND, so a noticeable fraction of the salinity), that the purple tang and flame angel would be dead. I was under the impression they were delicate fish that needed relatively good water quality. But who am I to argue with lab results? My own kits max out (though depending on the light it's hard to tell if it's the darkest shade, or 2nd darkest).

The tank is growing caulerpa quite well, and I've been harvesting it constantly. I also barely feed the tank at all to the point where I was worried about starving the fish. I had chaeto in the lit sump but it seems to have all died off. No nuisance algae to speak of (unless you count the caulerpa besides a little bit of film on the glass that I scrape off every few days.

I'll have to look into a pump, or perhaps mixing the water in a brute next to the tank, but it's at least a 40 foot long run of tube up 15 feet or so head pressure.

 

[TCoach]

Did you get your source water tested? If you didn't have a big die off, you have a Nitrate "leak" somewhere. (or you've never done a water change).

 

[Jack Ravensbergen]

Is there a specific NO3 to PO4 ratio I should be shooting for?

Po4 to no3 ratio is 1:100
So po4 0.06 nitrate 6.

 

[magicstix]

Did you get your source water tested? If you didn't have a big die off, you have a Nitrate "leak" somewhere. (or you've never done a water change).

RO/DI tested 100% pure, but I had recently replaced the filters, so who knows what it was before that.

 

[magicstix]

Po4 to no3 ratio is 1:100
So po4 0.06 nitrate 6.

I assume I shouldn't shoot for PO4 of 10 ppm if my nitrates really are 1000ppm, correct?

 

[Jack Ravensbergen]

I assume I shouldn't shoot for PO4 of 10 ppm if my nitrates really are 1000ppm, correct?

That's right , then you would have a po4 problem as well .
1:100 is ideal , but you need po4 to lower your no3.
Best thing to do is takkle your skimmer , clean the sandbed and maybe your overflow and sump .
After that like they said a massive waterchange.
To lower no3 you can use honey as well , 1 teaspoon 50 gallon daily.
Good luck and hope you find the source of the problem.