Trying to make my QT tank look nicer, can I add live rock?

[MUB]

I'm about to set up a 10G QT tank since I'm dealing with ich in my display tank.

Since the QT will be near my display, I wanted to set up something that looks nice. So far the only fish I'll be treating is a filefish. I'm also going to be using copper.

That being said, can I add a piece of live rock in the tank? I know people say you should add very little sand and use PVC pipes but all the stores I go to, I see rocks and sand in their QT. That rock would stay in the QT tank forever of course.

I've seen some people talk about sand online but not much regarding LR. What do you guys think?

 

[NanoJHB]

Rock would absorb some medications making it very difficult to keep control of the right levels. Stick to pvc pipes, they're common for a reason

 

[Woodyman]

If possible I'd recommend not keeping your QT near the display.

As stated above no rocks, pvc for hides. If your QT a sand dweller you can get away with a dish of sand, but not the whole tank.

 

[MUB]

If possible I'd recommend not keeping your QT near the display.

As stated above no rocks, pvc for hides. If your QT a sand dweller you can get away with a dish of sand, but not the whole tank.

Got it. Also, can you explain the first one a bit? I also read that it shouldn't be too far because of aerosol bacteria or something like that?

 

[Propane]

I think if you use rock you would have to nuke it afterwards. Might be a waste of good live rock.

 

[Woodyman]

Got it. Also, can you explain the first one a bit? I also read that it shouldn't be too far because of aerosol bacteria or something like that?

Yes aerosolised bacterial/virus can be a concern.

@Jay Hemdal had a nice write up about it. Let me try to find the link if he doesn't beat me to it.

 

[Woodyman]

About 2/3 of the way down you can read the bit about aerosolised bacteria/virus.

While the likelihood is low, it is possible. I don't know how close you meant by "near my display" so if you are 5-20+ft away it's more than likely a non-issue, but still a potential risk.

You have to decide what level of risk you want to take.

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

This is another good read if you haven't seen it yet.

Thread 'Current Quarantine Protocol' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

 

[MUB]

About 2/3 of the way down you can read the bit about aerosolised bacteria/virus.

While the likelihood is low, it is possible. I don't know how close you meant by "near my display" so if you are 5-20+ft away it's more than likely a non-issue, but still a potential risk.

You have to decide what level of risk you want to take.

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

This is another good read if you haven't seen it yet.

Thread 'Current Quarantine Protocol' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

Thank you!! Gonna go through these and make a decision.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm about to set up a 10G QT tank since I'm dealing with ich in my display tank.

Since the QT will be near my display, I wanted to set up something that looks nice. So far the only fish I'll be treating is a filefish. I'm also going to be using copper.

That being said, can I add a piece of live rock in the tank? I know people say you should add very little sand and use PVC pipes but all the stores I go to, I see rocks and sand in their QT. That rock would stay in the QT tank forever of course.

I've seen some people talk about sand online but not much regarding LR. What do you guys think?

If you use a calcium based material, it may absorb/adsorb copper at an unknown rate. You would not want to use that rock in an invertebrate tank later on. You would also want to use an amine based copper like coppersafe (not ionic copper). You would also need to test regularly with a good copper test like the Hanna HR to offset any copper loss.
I prefer pvc pipe (grin). The only time I suggest using live rock is when it is the only likely source for biological filtration.
Jay

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I use classic resin/plastic fish tank decorations in my QT. My kids wanted a castle in the fish tank, and this was a way I could accommodate them without putting such things in the actual reef tank. Win-Win

 

[exnisstech]

I think if you use rock you would have to nuke it afterwards. Might be a waste of good live rock.

Not necessarily. All of the rock in this tank was put through copper when I treated the DT several years ago and some cuprisorb and it's good to go.

EDIT: it does make keeping copper at therapeutic levels more challenging as the rock will absorb some.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not necessarily. All of the rock in this tank was put through copper when I treated the DT. A little time and some cuprisorb and it's good to go.

My worry is always that the amount of copper the rocks takes in is dependent on dose + time. Then, there is always the risk that if the pH drops in the tank due to some issue, the copper that had been bound up in the rock could be released.

Jay

 

[exnisstech]

My worry is always that the amount of copper the rocks takes in is dependent on dose + time. Then, there is always the risk that if the pH drops in the tank due to some issue, the copper that had been bound up in the rock could be released.

Jay

At the time I had no choice but to medicate the display. That was several years ago and everything does well in the tank now including crabs and shrimp. But I will say I do not monitor pH and very rarely even check it.
Ignorance is bliss or dumb luck. One saying must apply to my case

 

[jda]

You most likely have to dissolve that rock for the copper to unbind. Even then, the copper will likely bind to more aragonite quite quickly or bind to some organics and gets skimmed out. The pH needed is quite low and would likely kill inverts and fish, other than where it touches the sand in the case of a buffering. In any case, aragonite can bind copper down to nothing in the water column, so not a good idea to even put aragonite in there.

Ceramic stuff is OK. So is plastic. I have seen some plastic rocks for freshwater and cichlid tanks that people have used.

 

[MUB]

Thanks everyone. I have decided against adding sand and rock. I'll keep it simple with the PVC pipes.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You most likely have to dissolve that rock for the copper to unbind. Even then, the copper will likely bind to more aragonite quite quickly or bind to some organics and gets skimmed out. The pH needed is quite low and would likely kill inverts and fish, other than where it touches the sand in the case of a buffering. In any case, aragonite can bind copper down to nothing in the water column, so not a good idea to even put aragonite in there.

Ceramic stuff is OK. So is plastic. I have seen some plastic rocks for freshwater and cichlid tanks that people have used.

I think the issue is still pretty unclear. Certainly there is a difference between adsorption of amine-based copper and ionic copper products.

Take a look at this link on page 56:

http://drumandcroaker.org/pdf/2016.pdf

In this case, the pH drop of the test was to 6.5, but I was always taught that the release of copper from aragonite can begin at a pH of 7.5


Jay

 

[jda]

I have seen a few different things too. However, even 7.5 is not all that likely in a typical tank situation and would not be great. 6.5 would have lot more problems than some copper floating around if some rock is dissolving - even marine algae will not live on the clear walls of my calcium reactor at that pH.

I am not saying that knowingly using rock that has been exposed to copper is a good idea, or anything. However, we have no idea what has bound to the rocks that are quarried, or even in the ocean, and people just pretend, or assume, that everything is OK. I will take nearly any real live rock when somebody is getting out of the hobby and especially old Marshall Island and there is probably no chance that none of it was ever exposed. I just cook it in a bin to remove the phosphates and then reef-on.

I have just never found copper to be like Uranium to corals, or anything... but I am still cautious. I have no issue using a heater, powerhead or anything in a reef tank after a quick rinse off. I got a whole box of used Tunze pumps that were in a larger QT system because everybody was scared of them... quick scrub and rinse in some RO and Muriatic to get gunk off and no issues.

I know that the paper said that the copper leached. I did not know that was possible. It cannot simply wash off or wash away whenever it wants, right? The bind is permanent and only becomes free when the crystalline structure melts, right? Perhaps I am just way wrong on this.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have seen a few different things too. However, even 7.5 is not all that likely in a typical tank situation and would not be great. 6.5 would have lot more problems than some copper floating around if some rock is dissolving - even marine algae will not live on the clear walls of my calcium reactor at that pH.

I am not saying that knowingly using rock that has been exposed to copper is a good idea, or anything. However, we have no idea what has bound to the rocks that are quarried, or even in the ocean, and people just pretend, or assume, that everything is OK. I will take nearly any real live rock when somebody is getting out of the hobby and especially old Marshall Island and there is probably no chance that none of it was ever exposed. I just cook it in a bin to remove the phosphates and then reef-on.

I have just never found copper to be like Uranium to corals, or anything... but I am still cautious. I have no issue using a heater, powerhead or anything in a reef tank after a quick rinse off. I got a whole box of used Tunze pumps that were in a larger QT system because everybody was scared of them... quick scrub and rinse in some RO and Muriatic to get gunk off and no issues.

I know that the paper said that the copper leached. I did not know that was possible. It cannot simply wash off or wash away whenever it wants, right? The bind is permanent and only becomes free when the crystalline structure melts, right? Perhaps I am just way wrong on this.

I think the issue of amine-based copper binding with aragonite is a bit overstated, but still a risk.

Jay

 

[jda]

That bind with the ammonia is not long lasting, right? Once it is broken, then the free copper will bind to anything around from organics (skim) or aragonite/calcite? Once bound to rock and sand, the copper is no longer in amine form.

Is copper effective to treat fish as an amine?

I get your point. Even if the structure has a short life, it is still dangerous in that time frame.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That bind with the ammonia is not long lasting, right? Once it is broken, then the free copper will bind to anything around from organics (skim) or aragonite/calcite? Once bound to rock and sand, the copper is no longer in amine form.

Is copper effective to treat fish as an amine?

I get your point. Even if the structure has a short life, it is still dangerous in that time frame.

No, the amine bond seems pretty stable - 30 days or longer. The only time you see free copper from amine chelated products is when strong reducers are used - Prime for one. That free copper can be toxic just by itself.
Jay