Ugly brown phase for 2 years, please help

[Allaric]

Hello,

I have a 43 gallon housing a pair of blue mandarins. They require very minimal additional feeding, giving me complete control over the NO3/PO4 levels. The tank naturally moves to 0/0, and I need to supplement both NO3 and PO4 weekly in order to have a measurable amount of either. I had near zero coralline algae until the past six months due to low par (40). I bought a par meter, adjusted the light levels, and now it is growing.

I initially tried to run ULN due to the unusually low nutrient load and ran into a dino issue after a few months. To solve that I decided to move to a more traditional nutrient balance and started adding NO3 & PO4 in order to prevent the dinos. Since that point I vacillate between massive GHA takeover and something that is either dino or a slimy cyano. I test every 3-7 days based on the severity of the current situation.

I can manually battle my way out of each, but there is never a period of time that the tank looks "good" for more than a few days. The combination of GHA or dino kills every attempt at a coral after about a month (GSP lasts a little longer). I have tried to do the right thing by selecting a nutrient target and sticking with it for a few months, and I have researched whatever I could to try and fix this.

NO3:0 PO4:0 Ran for 6 months, had dinos for the last 3. Only had mandarins, pods, and a hermit. Low lights

NO3:2 PO4:0 Ran for 6 months, had the least algae, but was a brown coating that required daily blowing/cleaning. Low lights

NO3:4 PO4:0-.01 Ran for 6 months, GHA became stronger. Low lights. Added Astrea snails (no snails previously)

NO3:0 PO4:0 Ran for 2 months, over-correcting for GHA and trying to not to spike nutrients. dinos/cyano exploded. Brought to 80 par to correct light issue.

NO3:8 PO4:0.04 Ran for 3 months trying to keep the 20/1 ratio and higher nutrients for corals. GHA exploded, killed most of the plugs.

NO3:4 PO4:0.01 Current setup for 2 months, GHA thick in the rocks and sandbed. 2 weeks ago added additional hermits and a 5 lettuce nudi's and some cheato to fight the GHA with no change sofar. GSP and two LPS are still alive but in strong decline.

I need help. The only thing I have success with are the fish and hermits that are still doing fine.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Can you provide clear pics under white lights? I have a suspicion but need to see pics
Is tank or near a window?
What test kits are you using?

 

[Brymac1]

I would get some urchins, they are GHA eating machines

 

[Allaric]

Here is a picture of my war. The clean areas are due to my scrubbing. I did not do a full scrub in one day because I don't want to crash the pod population. I will hit those again in a couple days after the pods move around.

I am not against an urchin, but I am concerned with the size. The tank is not very large. I am also concerned that it may eat things other than GHA. Mandarins eat only copepods, so there is no leftover fish food for an urchin to scavenge.

I can not add other fish. Mandarin are very skittish, and this tank is strictly for them.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I am no expert, but I can tell you I'm pretty sure that GHA and mess is locking up phosphates. So if you wipe everything out it'll spike your phosphates pretty bad. The only way I know is to remove the rocks one by one, scrub and H202 bath em, rinse in RO and put em back in. Your sand is PACKED with stuffs, it needs addressed. Is copepod population worth losing livestock and coral over? You can just buy more and re-seed (jay's reef bugs ++++). The other option is chemical warfare, which usually never goes well. You could try vibrant or some other algaecide but the impact on the livestock is a real concern. This tank needs a hard reboot to get your footing back under you. The system has been operating in this manner for so long it's basically locked into this biome. Just pray Brandon429 doesn't see this...RIP CLEAN CITY, POPULATION: YOU. Good luck! Don't get discouraged. This hobby can kick you in the groin pretty frequently. Personal opinion is that you are in triage care at this point. It's not going to go much longer in current conditions.

 

[Duncan62]

Here is a picture of my war. The clean areas are due to my scrubbing. I did not do a full scrub in one day because I don't want to crash the pod population. I will hit those again in a couple days after the pods move around.

I am not against an urchin, but I am concerned with the size. The tank is not very large. I am also concerned that it may eat things other than GHA. Mandarins eat only copepods, so there is no leftover fish food for an urchin to scavenge.

I can not add other fish. Mandarin are very skittish, and this tank is strictly for them.

Pincushion urchin. Tuxedo urchin. Clean that right up. If the tank is dedicated to the mandarins you'll have to feed the urchins. Good luck.

 

[brandon429]

here’s where we stand.

right when you are fed up and ready to trustfall fix the reef send me a message.

we do a secret undisclosed action on the tank, and then the next picture you post here will look so good we‘ll be accused of photoshopping it. You yourself won’t believe it’s this clear even as the tank sits right in front of you. I realize this is an unbelievable claim, but when you’re ready, a ~40 gallon will take right at 3-4 hours to prep.

there’s a certain preparatory test we’d do first, then it’s hammer time and your reef will be completely 100% restored and not one spec of algae and the params will be perfect and the corals and fish much happier.

 

[brandon429]

In my opinion the algae growth isn’t needed to keep mandarins. Lots of folks keep them in clean tanks but in the end if you want to keep it all because the fish like it, that’s ok too. But in 3-4 hours you can have a shockingly fixed reef that’s for sure, then you can just add bagged pods right back to a clean tank with as many hiding spaces as before.

 

[erictorres0311]

How much does something like this cost ?

 

[erictorres0311]

In my opinion the algae growth isn’t needed to keep mandarins. Lots of folks keep them in clean tanks but in the end if you want to keep it all because the fish like it, that’s ok too. But in 3-4 hours you can have a shockingly fixed reef that’s for sure, then you can just add bagged pods right back to a clean tank with as many hiding spaces as before.

How much does something like this cost ? I’m intrigued

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

 

[BanjoBandito]

How much does something like this cost ? I’m intrigued

Elbow grease. Lol.

 

[brandon429]

big post warning, tryptophan mingled




the real truth about a rip clean is this: all the ways we are actually allowed to forcefully clean a reef to make it run correct only seem bad because our hobby is barely coming to the understanding that our resident bacteria are far far far tougher than we were taught

consider any industry that deals with slicks scums adherents and wet bacteria, such as medicine or dentistry or industrial meat plant production systems and then our tanks


in the businesses outside of reefing, bacteria are so tough and resilient in water that they must boil, dry, burn, freeze, medicate, and the bacteria still get through all they can do is reduce them, the industries never really are in full control against bacteria its a constant fight to keep them in check


but in reefing? Withhold fish feed during a fallow- the bacteria died our peers wielding api test kits will testify.


accidentally overdose ammonia (food) to bacteria during a cycle? Dead lol


remove all your sand at once? Bacteria= dead


see how that works? One pass one mismove in reefing, total loss of bac, that is exactly what we were all taught

we buy bottles and bottles of replacement bottle bac out of this trained flinchy fear


but the truth is none of that is true. Fallow systems don’t lose their filter, wet systems get daily feed even if we don’t provide it

removing your sand doesn’t leave you shy on bacteria, the rocks carry what we need, always.


I have multiple threads handy on demand/just ask / for anyone to see that spiking ammonia massively didn’t harm a cycle even though ten thousand api wielding peers will vehemently disagree despite the proof (our training is well set)

The truth is you can roughly, roughly, clean a reef using a certain order of ops and the bacteria stick into and onto surfaces and pores the whole time. Our cleaning is not resetting the filter, or causing mini cycles, it’s simply cleaning systems that run too high on bacteria anyway and to blast some down the sink isnt any particular loss.

By knowing the true boundaries of bacteria we are allowed to clean out their associates invaders + systemic waste and be totally assured the system won’t be harmed or recycle


so in this link below are the six best rip cleans I’ve seen and Banjo’s nano was my link #1.

the cost for you is 40 gallons of new water, have a brute of all new water ready matching temp and salinity to current water, at the end of this is a complete new water change

we would disassemble your reef until it’s bone empty. You’d have a bare glass tank wiped clean and all your living stuff is held in totes or buckets as the example thread below will show.


your sand will be rinsed 1000% clean.

the rocks will be cleaned all at once a special way, not dipped, not hit with tap water, but cleaned in a way we already know kills algae and maintains their bacteria. To prove it’ll work we clean one test rock from your set alone and set it back in the tank to watch it for proof of sustain.

the reassembled tank will be perfect sand cloudless as the base, rocks back in on top, fish back in and rocks and corals in the new water and what’s excluded is algae and detritus. It’ll be laser clear

The whole thing skip cycles because bacteria on the rocks are just as tough to get off the rocks as they are on hospital surfaces where repeat scrubbing and chemical burning on flat steel is really what’s required to kill bacteria…a rip clean only seems bad to falsely trained aquarists, in the realm of industrial microbiology it’s a laughable bacterial tickle


pods


they hide in the rocks and aren’t all killed and we have pics and pics of post rip clean tanks having pods emerge


but since you have pod-hungry fish you can buy a refresher bag off Algae barn/ whoever and add them to the ultra clean tank and then it’s all fixed. You won’t dose bacteria, or spend any money beyond forty gallons of all new water and you’ll use tap water on the sand to rinse it clean because we just mentioned above sandbed bacteria are expendable in the real world. we aren’t required to keep them in any reef tank and most of your algae feed and waste is packed in that sand it’s totally cloudy if you mixed it about in the tank, the whole goal is to rid all of it and make the reef look brand new in one 4 hour pass.


your fish won’t die if you hold them safely, covered, lids in the holding totes. You’re simply removing them so you can attack the reef correctly.


I didn’t write all that to hurt your eyes I wrote it to show intent care for your system, we won’t kill it

the first step is we remove one test rock and clean it my way and then set the rock back looking *perfect* among the others, watch it for a week. At the end of a few days or a week of observation you’ll see that rock looks great while the others don’t, and we’ll do the whole job all at once to make em all look that way.


here’s the proof Im not a reef wacko:

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

dont just glance at the thread read it’s links, it’s follow up links on the tanks we ripped. That flow is what will save your tank from eutrophication imbalance


if there were better or more consistent ways of getting laser clear tanks out of bad ones, nobody would ever consider a rip clean. The only reason we don’t start with one vs have to get pushed into it is because aquarists are given totally opposite microbiology training vs any other industry, we are taught to always fear running low on bacteria so we will buy more.

 

[Allaric]

I very much appreciate the information, but my main concern is not getting the rocks and sand clean, that i can do. I am trying to find a balance that will prevent the algae from returning. I have something fundamentally wrong, causing the problem to resurface every time it is cleaned up.

Am I shooting for too much phosphate? Is there an imbalance between my NO3/PO4 that is causing problems? Are other tanks clean because they just blast it with CuC and you can't see it?

Thanks

 

[WVNed]

I will give you an idea. What you do with it is up to you. You have built a mini ecosystem in your tank. You control the light, flow of water and water chemistry.

What grows well in your tank is a good indicator of the balance you have established between those 3 things which are equally important.

I would suggest you think outside the box of water paramaters as a general cure to all problems. It isn't.

A simple example would be an algae scrubber. It takes the same water that is in a DT and grows algae in a particular place simply by giving it more light.

 

[czoolander]

Lots of ways to beat GHA . The common thread is " patience "

I took the short version by dosing RedSea NOpOX took about 2 weeks to eliminate the GHA

I have patches of diatoms here and there in the sand but every reef will get those from time to time

 

[WVNed]

Here are some closeups. My tanks don't get scrubbed or stirred and vacuumed. The flow does my scrubbing. There is a tiny bit of algae for things to eat.
I am not super careful with my parameters and they usually run 0.1 or slightly under for PO4 and 5 for nitrates.
I have turned my LEDs down or shortened the day with the MHs. Lots of flow which I program to be 10-20% higher when the lights are off.

 

[DannoOMG]

I don't have an outbreak that bad (yet) in my 13 gallon nano. I have some thick spots with green hair algae. I got some nylon brushes to try and grab it. It just makes a mess. I have a refugium going in the back of the tank. Who knows if that is going to help. My nitrates were a little over 0 (maybe 2ppm) yesterday. My phosphates are 0 (according to the API kit, maybe they are indeed higher but API can't detect?)

I just do small water changes and I hope it goes away eventually. It has been in the tank for over 2 months. I figure it is going to take that long to get rid of it. My refugium has only been running for over a week. I added a big bag of carbon. Change my filter floss out and rinse my bag of denitrate in tank water every week.

I have tried using API's AlgaeFix... pfffft. Doesn't do anything.

I like the idea of pumping up the powerhead when the lights go off. I have an MP10 on a 13 gallon tank and was running it at 25%. Now day time is at 30% and night time will be 40%.

The hobby can be a real ball buster sometimes. ( and I am only a year into my own personal tank. 2 years if you count the time spent on the work tank)

(Pic taken with white lights on so you can see the mess.)

 

[BanjoBandito]

I don't have an outbreak that bad (yet) in my 13 gallon nano. I have some thick spots with green hair algae. I got some nylon brushes to try and grab it. It just makes a mess. I have a refugium going in the back of the tank. Who knows if that is going to help. My nitrates were a little over 0 (maybe 2ppm) yesterday. My phosphates are 0 (according to the API kit, maybe they are indeed higher but API can't detect?)

I just do small water changes and I hope it goes away eventually. It has been in the tank for over 2 months. I figure it is going to take that long to get rid of it. My refugium has only been running for over a week. I added a big bag of carbon. Change my filter floss out and rinse my bag of denitrate in tank water every week.

I have tried using API's AlgaeFix... pfffft. Doesn't do anything.

I like the idea of pumping up the powerhead when the lights go off. I have an MP10 on a 13 gallon tank and was running it at 25%. Now day time is at 30% and night time will be 40%.

The hobby can be a real ball buster sometimes.

(Pic taken with white lights on so you can see the mess.)

What kinda fuge setup do you have for that tank?

 

[DannoOMG]

JBJ NANO GLO - LED Refugium Light

Turn your NANO Cube into an “In-Tank” Refugium. The NANO-GLO LED Refugium Light boasts four high-intensity LED’s that evenly distribute light for macro algae and aid in the removal of unwanted phosphates and nitrates. Innovative design utilizes a magent that allows for easy attachment and...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I use this light and a media basket in the second chamber to hold the chaeto.

I got a cheap timer it is plugged into at Lowes. That is about it.