Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Pretty much all of the mini assays conducted have some glaring confounding variables that make the results inconclusive yet they go wholly unacknowledged.

The NMR's pin down the exact match to Algaefix. That's the show stopper. Nothing else matters, IMO. I told that to Jeff from UWC when he asked me what sorts of tests to do.

There's no other wordly explanation of how a bacteria product and an algaecide match in proton and carbon NM3 than them being the same material. Absolutely NONE. To argue that one cannot prove it is exactly polexitonium for a bunch of distracting reason ignores the exact NMR match to algaefix. EXACT.

As to all the other assays, they just add to the idea that algaefix and vibrant perform the same in every way tested. They are not the same level of proof as NMR and IR, and need not be.
 

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GARRIGA

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How long exactly should it take to do these tests?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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How long exactly should it take to do these tests?

If you mean UWC, they are/were planning more tests than discussed here, such as bacterial grow out, but they told me on Wednesday morning (2 days ago) that they were just waiting on NMR, and expected to have those results that day or the next (Thursday).
 

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How long exactly should it take to do these tests?
The NMR run would take something in the order of minutes, less than an hour. But lots of samples, and the QAQC and analysis could take some. And some labs might be busier than others.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I saw comments from UWC that 1) indicated the use of bacterial metabolites (i.e., cell free) from cyanobacteria and select Bacillus spp. that involve the production of polyaspartic acid; 2) suggested that the quat-like response is normal; and 3) that the lab who developed it is slated to present this research at an upcoming conference for the American Society of Microbiologists. I'm assuming it's a biotech firm and the 'bacteria blend' has remained a proprietary secret because they're working on a patent and/or publication. That's pretty normal. I've checked and the book of abstracts for that conference is not out yet but it seems plausible to me due to how easily it can be verified.

Let's explore this so no one one here gets confused that it makes sense.

Polyaspartic acid is a polyanion (negative charge at pH above 4-5, never positively charged at any pH), not a polycation (positive charges like polexitonium). It will not share any chemical properties with a quat.

So suggesting a quat-like response is normal seems rather misguided.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The NMR's pin down the exact match to Algaefix. That's the show stopper. Nothing else matters, IMO. I told that to Jeff from UWC when he asked me what sorts of tests to do.

I should clarify exactly what the exchange consisted of so there's no misunderstanding.

He did not literally ask me what tests to run. I worded that poorly

He emailed me and said he was having some tests run, and I asked which ones.

He responded mentioning some tests, and I then told him the tests that I thought were most important (NMR run exactly as taricha did).
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Hi taricha and JDA,

Question about the NMR procedures.

Were the initial samples of vibrant and algaefix clear, cloudy?

When the dried samples were taken back up in D2O, were they clear? Cloudy? Was there substantial material that did not redissolve or resuspend?

Just trying to understand what fraction of the dissolved/suspended material in the initial bottle actually went into the NMR tube. 90+%? 1%? etc..
 

jeffww

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Hi taricha and JDA,

Question about the NMR procedures.

Were the initial samples of vibrant and algaefix clear, cloudy?

When the dried samples were taken back up in D2O, were they clear? Cloudy? Was there substantial material that did not redissolve or resuspend?

Just trying to understand what fraction of the dissolved/suspended material in the initial bottle actually went into the NMR tube. 90+%? 1%? etc..
This is the lyophilisate from 20ml-ish of algaefix or vibrant. Not sure how the others managed to dewater the material. Super soluble stuff and hygroscopic. Dissolves clear and has since sucked up enough water from the air to become a sticky goo sitting in my drawer.

085B7A2F-F54A-4B68-9755-E04C18C58B76.jpeg
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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This is the lyophilisate from 20ml-ish of algaefix or vibrant. Not sure how the others managed to dewater the material. Super soluble stuff and hygroscopic. Dissolves clear and has since sucked up enough water from the air to become a sticky goo sitting in my drawer.

085B7A2F-F54A-4B68-9755-E04C18C58B76.jpeg

It dissoslves clear when water is added back?
 

Atrumblood

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This is the lyophilisate from 20ml-ish of algaefix or vibrant. Not sure how the others managed to dewater the material. Super soluble stuff and hygroscopic. Dissolves clear and has since sucked up enough water from the air to become a sticky goo sitting in my drawer.

085B7A2F-F54A-4B68-9755-E04C18C58B76.jpeg
Holy handwriting batman! Makes mine look like art. HAHA
 

avidhexagrammid

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Polyaspartic acid is a polyanion (negative charge at pH above 4-5, never positively charged at any pH), not a polycation (positive charges like polexitonium). It will not share any chemical properties with a quat.
The quat-like response from these assays would also be caused by the cholinium cation...which is quaternary ammonium. Not sure why you're comparing a spec of pure choline with that of the mixtures from taricha and suggesting they should be the same. That is misleading.

RE: polyaspartic acid, I'm going to guess that you didn't skim any of the sources I included about cyanophycin synthetase. Polyaspartic acid is what would result from polymerization of that enzyme upon activation from the K+ and Mg+ ions in the tank water.

Still no answers to my questions about sample conditions and concentration.
 
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