Update on velvet after blueface angelfish lost

[LadAShark]

So far the infection appears to have spread to my flame angelfish (dulling of colors), blue tang (one white speck on him), and niger triggerfish. However the symptoms my niger triggerfish shows are weird. He appears to be slowly losing the tip of his upper back tail, which should not be a symptom of velvet. I am trying to establish my 55g tank as a hospital tank asap, and I have found a vet who is willing to prescribe me chloraquine phosphate, though I am contemplating just treating with cupramine because of my blue tang (which I would have to separate and treat with copper anyway) and because it will take some time for me to get the CP.

Onto the niger triggerfish though. What could it be? Why would it slowly start losing the tip of its tail when that is not a symptom of velvet? There does not appear to be any stringy cottony material there so I assume it’s not fungal, what could be going on? I will try to get some pictures of him when I catch/attempt to catch him.

I have some formalin on hand but I did not want to use it as I have read that it shortens the lifespan of fish. Is this true? I want to get some acriflavine but I can’t find it anywhere except from one or two sites online.

 

[Big G]

Formalin can cause liver damage and is very hard to find. Ruby Reef Rally is an acriflavine based product. The damage to the trigger could be a bacterial infection due to the velvet parasite's many insertion points. That's why it is important to do what you are doing and observe the fish with velvet being active in the tank. It's not uncommon, to treat the fish while treating velvet, with a wide spectrum antibiotic like Kanaplex, Furan2 while in copper. Just remember to increase the O2 into the QT with a powerhead aimed up to the surface, actively rippling the water surface. Dwarf angels can be very sensitive to copper. Close observation will be necessary when dosing copper. Highly recommend using a Hanna HL Copper Checker; those other test kits like API are worthless. With the Hanna you can creep up to min. therapeutic level (1.5ppm) and stay there if necessary for the dwarf angel.

 

[HotRocks]

I agree with everything @Big G says above. Acriflavine baths for each fish. Definitely want to get all your fish in therapuetic copper and add Kanaplex and Furan-2 to the mix. Areate tank very heavily.

As quick as this is progressing you may be dealing with a gram negative strain of bacteria as well.

 

[LadAShark]

Formalin can cause liver damage and is very hard to find. Ruby Reef Rally is an acriflavine based product. The damage to the trigger could be a bacterial infection due to the velvet parasite's many insertion points. That's why it is important to do what you are doing and observe the fish with velvet being active in the tank. It's not uncommon, to treat the fish while treating velvet, with a wide spectrum antibiotic like Kanaplex, Furan2 while in copper. Just remember to increase the O2 into the QT with a powerhead aimed up to the surface, actively rippling the water surface. Dwarf angels can be very sensitive to copper. Close observation will be necessary when dosing copper. Highly recommend using a Hanna HL Copper Checker; those other test kits like API are worthless. With the Hanna you can creep up to min. therapeutic level (1.5ppm) and stay there if necessary for the dwarf angel.

I have heard that not all copper test kits can check cupramine. Can Hanna HL Copper Checker do so? If not, is Seachem’s copper test a good alternative?
I actually have a lot of formalin on hand, but am having difficulty finding acriflavine.
I will be visiting a few lfs’s to try to gather everything I need.

I have also heard that when going fallow your tank should be at least 10 feet away from the dt. Does velvet have the capability to go airborne?

To sum it up Acriflavine>kanaplex+furan2+cupramine. I have some erythromycin that I bought as well, but I know that that targets gram positive bacteria, would it be worthwhile using some as well?

In the meanwhile, thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Big G]

I've had zero problems with Seachem's copper test kit while dosing with cupramine. That being said, with the Hanna HL Copper Checker, I'm sticking with Copper Power these days.
There has been a study of a rare case of Ich passing airborne at a distance. So the 10' rule helps eliminate that problem. And of course, separate equipment for the DT & QT goes without saying.
There are two things that can kill marine fish very, very quickly: marine velvet and gram negative bacterial infections. Both require swift action to save fish.

 

[LadAShark]

I've had zero problems with Seachem's copper test kit while dosing with cupramine. That being said, with the Hanna HL Copper Checker, I'm sticking with Copper Power these days.
There has been a study of a rare case of Ich passing airborne at a distance. So the 10' rule helps eliminate that problem. And of course, separate equipment for the DT & QT goes without saying.
There are two things that can kill marine fish very, very quickly: marine velvet and gram negative bacterial infections. Both require swift action to save fish.

I can see that the marine velvet is progressing very quickly. Visibly under a few hours spots have appeared on fish that didn’t have them. I have finally been able to get everything together (got delayed a little because I got seriously stuck in traffic).
I have the hospital tank fully setup, the methylene blue freshwater dip ready to go (unfortunately could not get my hands on any acriflavine— no lfs’s near me carry it) and I am not willing to use formalin despite having bought it exactly for this type of thing. The infection has progressed fast but is not yet bad enough to justify a formalin dip.

I am sad to say to pin it on them, but considering I had no fish in the system for well over several months, healthy inverts and corals, and only added fish from @FishyBusinessAq , their systems must have had velvet in it. I have sent them a polite email regarding this matter but I have not received a response. Not that I expect compensation but I worry that they are giving multiple people a start with marine velvet.

Though I am still satisfied with their service, this does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[LadAShark]

Update: did dip, 5 of 6 fish doing alright but flame angel has lost much of its strength and is slightly off balance, points head upwards. I don’t think he’s going to make it. Separated him from the other fish into another container to watch him for a while before making it worse with copper.

6th is flame angel. I’m watching his life slowly ebb away between my fingers. I am trying to aerate his gills but his energy is waning. I hope he miraculously survives but I doubt he’ll make it past the hour.

I have ended up pulling an all nighter for my fish. Not sure if good or bad, but after freshwater dip and copper, many of the white specks have fallen off the other fish. Flame is too weak to feasibly tolerate copper, but contemplating it for a last ditch attempt.

 

[LadAShark]

Well the flame angel has made it past the hour and is going on the second hour, largely due to forcefully keeping his gills oxygenated. I have not treated him with copper yet but I have treated him with full doses of kanamycin and furan2.

I know that technically it’s not worth my time and health to put this much effort into the flame angelfish, but I feel responsible as the person who bought him to keep him healthy. When I see him trying to hard to survive who am I to let him die. I really hope he survives one way or another...

I have, however, realized that he has reddened gills that I could not detect due to his red color. The same red gills that forecasted the death of my blueface. I just hope that somehow I can keep alive long enough for the antibiotics to reduce his gill issues...

Maybe I am just crazy and I should let him pass away... futilely extending the inevitable.

What makes me saddest is he still barely had the energy to watch me. I think he will pass any minute now.

 

[4FordFamily]

Sorry for the trouble, you have to act immediately with velvet.

Honestly velvet is everywhere right now I’m not making excuses for any vendor but as a hobbyist the unfortunate reality is that you have to assume every batch of fish has velvet— it’s not a bad assumption...

Also, for what it is worth I’ve found no sensitivity in dwarf angels to copper in my experience. They are very sensitive to any ammonia present and to low oxygen levels which is where I think this belief comes from. I believe copper is wrongfully blamed for the aforementioned issues. Dozens of centropyge have made it through copper in my observations over the last few years — many of whom were in higher concentrations of copper due to inconsistent coppersafe bottles.

 

[LadAShark]

Sorry for the trouble, you have to act immediately with velvet.

Honestly velvet is everywhere right now I’m not making excuses for any vendor but as a hobbyist the unfortunate reality is that you have to assume every batch of fish has velvet— it’s not a bad assumption...

Also, for what it is worth I’ve found no sensitivity in dwarf angels to copper in my experience. They are very sensitive to any ammonia present and to low oxygen levels which is where I think this belief comes from. I believe copper is wrongfully blamed for the aforementioned issues. Dozens of centropyge have made it through copper in my observations over the last few years — many of whom were in higher concentrations of copper due to inconsistent coppersafe bottles.

Yeah I understand perfectly why velvet is everywhere. It’s just if they want to keep prices as low as they are and sell as much as they can, at maximum efficiency, it simply makes more sense to sell to the hobbyist regardless, velvet or not. And simultaneously it is uneconomical to quarantine each fish individually, such that if one has velvet it cannot pass it on to many others.

It was my foolishness to not pick up on the blueface having velvet earlier. And I was silly not to just assume they had velvet regardless. It makes me sad to think that these losses were preventable, but I guess going forward I simply will not trust any livestock from anywhere regardless of how healthy it looks or behaves.

Thanks for following along and helping guys.
I don’t know if it’s feasible for my flame angel to recover but I think I have ay least saved my other five. The flame angel can barely move but if it helps at all its definitely trying its best to breathe. I doubt it will make it, but I am crossing my fingers.

I’m a little reluctant to consider replacing fish stock now, but, would after my five remaining fish recover to a good degree be a good time to add another fish to the hospital tank? Treat it alongside the other fish and assume that my timer had reset for the treatment?
I most likely will not get any fish in the next couple months at the earliest, but I am also curious as to whether it would be feasible or actually a good idea.

Again, thanks for all the help.

 

[LadAShark]

Update: as of 15 minutes ago flame angelfish is lost. All other fish are doing great however and appear to be on path to full recovery.

I knew the flame most likely wouldn’t make it but I had to give it my all.

 

[Big G]

Sorry for your loss. Went through the same thing with a QT tank full of fish. All were lost due to the velvet that did not show symptoms until it was too late. Hard to take and comprehend. Be of good cheer. You learned a lot that will benefit your fish and others reading your posts. Take care.

 

[AquaLocker]

Sorry for the delayed response! You have received some excellent advice above. We have replied to your email and are very sorry about your losses.

 

[LadAShark]

Sorry for the delayed response! You have received some excellent advice above. We have replied to your email and are very sorry about your losses.

Thank you.

I just wanted to make sure you noted that your systems could have velvet in them because that would not be pretty. Nonetheless, looking forward to doing business with you again in the future.

 

[tiggs]

Yeah I understand perfectly why velvet is everywhere. It’s just if they want to keep prices as low as they are and sell as much as they can, at maximum efficiency, it simply makes more sense to sell to the hobbyist regardless, velvet or not. And simultaneously it is uneconomical to quarantine each fish individually, such that if one has velvet it cannot pass it on to many others.

It was my foolishness to not pick up on the blueface having velvet earlier. And I was silly not to just assume they had velvet regardless. It makes me sad to think that these losses were preventable, but I guess going forward I simply will not trust any livestock from anywhere regardless of how healthy it looks or behaves.

Thanks for following along and helping guys.
I don’t know if it’s feasible for my flame angel to recover but I think I have ay least saved my other five. The flame angel can barely move but if it helps at all its definitely trying its best to breathe. I doubt it will make it, but I am crossing my fingers.

I’m a little reluctant to consider replacing fish stock now, but, would after my five remaining fish recover to a good degree be a good time to add another fish to the hospital tank? Treat it alongside the other fish and assume that my timer had reset for the treatment?
I most likely will not get any fish in the next couple months at the earliest, but I am also curious as to whether it would be feasible or actually a good idea.

Again, thanks for all the help.

I'm so sorry for your losses. If you are interested in purchasing fish that have gone through an entire quarantine process with multiple rounds of medicated treatment, an observation period, and conditioning to accept frozen food prior to going up for sale, I honestly can't say enough good things about TSM Coral (another R2R sponsor). I live 15 minutes from them and have seen their entire quarantine setup and it's very impressive.

I'm the guy that's always telling everyone to never trust fish from anywhere and to QT everything no matter what. TSM is the first time I've ever made an exception. And no, I don't work there or anything like that. I just spend a lot of money there and try to point as many people in their direction as possible, because they're one of the few stores that's really doing a great job and trying to make a positive impact on the current state of livestock. Places like that are who we want to succeed and force other business to adopt their practices.

 

[LadAShark]

I'm so sorry for your losses. If you are interested in purchasing fish that have gone through an entire quarantine process with multiple rounds of medicated treatment, an observation period, and conditioning to accept frozen food prior to going up for sale, I honestly can't say enough good things about TSM Coral (another R2R sponsor). I live 15 minutes from them and have seen their entire quarantine setup and it's very impressive.

I'm the guy that's always telling everyone to never trust fish from anywhere and to QT everything no matter what. TSM is the first time I've ever made an exception. And no, I don't work there or anything like that. I just spend a lot of money there and try to point as many people in their direction as possible, because they're one of the few stores that's really doing a great job and trying to make a positive impact on the current state of livestock. Places like that are who we want to succeed and force other business to adopt their practices.

Yeah. I will look for such a vendor in the future. I don’t want a fish that looks healthy, I want a fish that is healthy.

I have read FishyBusinessAquatic’s email and am thinking on it.

 

[408Dartfish]

Keep us updated LadAShark, hope the rest of your fish make it. Been following on the local reef forum also. Dustin

 

[LadAShark]

Keep us updated LadAShark, hope the rest of your fish make it. Been following on the local reef forum also. Dustin

Will do.

So far I am up to a full therapeutic dose of cupramine and am medicating kanamycin and furan2. Fish are in great health (or at least so it appears) though a little reluctant to eat. I have chloramine phosphate on hand now too, and I am contemplating whether I should switch.

 

[LadAShark]

Update: fish were in great condition as of last night, but today it seems like my indian trigger is in worse condition

Worse yet, I found the indian trigger eating my sailfin tang. I had been feeding their fill already but...

I’m not sure if the tang died then the indian trigger went after, or if the indian trigger killed it. I’m leaning towards the latter, so I separated the trigger from everything else.

Yet I had never seen any aggression by him towards other fish for the time that I had him...

This is a disaster...

 

[HotRocks]

Update: fish were in great condition as of last night, but today it seems like my indian trigger is in worse condition

Worse yet, I found the indian trigger eating my sailfin tang. I had been feeding their fill already but...

I’m not sure if the tang died then the indian trigger went after, or if the indian trigger killed it. I’m leaning towards the latter, so I separated the trigger from everything else.

Yet I had never seen any aggression by him towards other fish for the time that I had him...

This is a disaster...

He was probably just snacking after the fish died. I have seen this in my QTs before. If a fish dies during the day while at work, I've come home to fish that have been munched on.

Sorry you are having a tough time. Velvet is nasty and we've all been there at some point man, I feel for ya.