Updated cycling science trends in 2023
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OP
OP
readers: try and find some cycle challenge threads currently running and we'll decode them here + name the bioload carry date, then they test the predicted date / see if their fish live just fine
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Seems like fine evidence of a cycle to me;
Hello - First cycle?
Obviously I'm a newbie, so I believe this is a typical question with a typical answer. So my 10 gal nano life rock from established store aquarium, 5lbs life sand a pinch of clown fish flake food . Using fluval cycle bacteria starter. Ammonia spiked within the first 5 days to off the charts...www.reef2reef.com
Look what cycle advisors using old cycling science stated in that thread
We're studying what coaches said, not the cycler
We know cyclers only have old cycling science material to read/ that's not going to change until new macna talks give permission to use the new science that sellers at macna use
Until then, forum coaches are responsible for updating posters with threads they read that show strong patterns for the new way
Watch forum peers dig in heels for years refusing to relay new findings. Cycling isn't allowed to evolve, is that apparent above?
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OP
OP
Wanted to keep the theme going regarding certainty in cycling vs unsure hesitation/dependency on test kits
www.reef2reef.com
track that poster's build to watch the tank carry bioload on the stated dates. His test readings were not factored in the assessment. the stated timeframe underwater, the live rock inclusion plus the bottle bac used already studied for adherence dates in Dr Reefs bottle bac thread plus any cycling chart's ammonia drop date give us a clear and predictable start date for the op.
old cycling science would never be sure of any cycling status without consulting the test kit.
new cycling science knows if this cycle is audited with a calibrated seneye it will pass, because we as reefers are all setting up copied ways of starting tanks and that links us all for a very predictable cycle end date, without testing.
we don't need any testing of any parameter other than temp and salinity to cycle someone's reef tank, be it dry or live rock start or uncured ocean rock starts. there are a few types of setups that would wait a little longer than ten days (feed only cycles no bottle bac no live rock) but the majority of them are these less than ten days setups. bottle bac is a big speedy boost.
Cycling api test results
Hey guys! I am cycling a biocube 29. This my 5th day. I wanna know if anyone sees ammonia spike in that test? Thank you so much!
www.reef2reef.com
track that poster's build to watch the tank carry bioload on the stated dates. His test readings were not factored in the assessment. the stated timeframe underwater, the live rock inclusion plus the bottle bac used already studied for adherence dates in Dr Reefs bottle bac thread plus any cycling chart's ammonia drop date give us a clear and predictable start date for the op.
old cycling science would never be sure of any cycling status without consulting the test kit.
new cycling science knows if this cycle is audited with a calibrated seneye it will pass, because we as reefers are all setting up copied ways of starting tanks and that links us all for a very predictable cycle end date, without testing.
we don't need any testing of any parameter other than temp and salinity to cycle someone's reef tank, be it dry or live rock start or uncured ocean rock starts. there are a few types of setups that would wait a little longer than ten days (feed only cycles no bottle bac no live rock) but the majority of them are these less than ten days setups. bottle bac is a big speedy boost.
Suus801
New Member
Time for an update I guess.. my only issue I have with my tank it’s Red Sea.. lol other than that everything is thriving, no issues with adding fish, no issues with corals. Just finished a small diatom bloom which was quickly resolved with my cuc.
thanks again Brendan
and before the foxface police arrive, yes we are upgrading completely love the hobby and want to keep tangs so the waterbox lx 270.6 is on order
OP
OP
Hey thanks for posting
If you can possibly get around to sending me an actual cycling challenge to work live time that'd be great, I'll work it from a Finnish perspective + updated cycling science
If you can possibly get around to sending me an actual cycling challenge to work live time that'd be great, I'll work it from a Finnish perspective + updated cycling science
OP
OP
It's hard to get real live rock and it was rather harmful if we'd kept up the pace from the 90s onward agreed. Companies like TBS do a service to reefers and the environment with their mariculture
This thread aims to simply impart readers with an absolute command of their start date, their bioload carry ability, to become independent from cautious and worrisome testing approaches, to be immediately inclusive of fish disease risks even before ammonia concerns and to never have to buy five rounds of bottle bacteria if one can be harnessed to do the job. Those are the ways in which we differ from old cycling science
If a tinge of conspiracy theory makes the reading more fun then how do you know they're not out to get us
This thread aims to simply impart readers with an absolute command of their start date, their bioload carry ability, to become independent from cautious and worrisome testing approaches, to be immediately inclusive of fish disease risks even before ammonia concerns and to never have to buy five rounds of bottle bacteria if one can be harnessed to do the job. Those are the ways in which we differ from old cycling science
If a tinge of conspiracy theory makes the reading more fun then how do you know they're not out to get us
Rmckoy
7500 Club Member
And then there are some of us that have been in Canada that have been in this hobby far too long .
I have more live rocks in storage than the average family would have
back in the day when rocks were a little cheaper . I managed to pick up close to 400 lbs of rocks from various systems purchased strictly for livestock .
now knowing the rocks sell at a lfs close to $20/lb if you can even find them .
I’m glad I grabbed them when I did .
that being said there are a few lfs in Ontario that sell “wet rocks “ in huge containers of salt water but the price can be a little scary
OP
OP
Continuing the discussion on the role of extra surface area criticality in reef displays using updated cycling science
If I clean my canister filter too much on a reef tank can it crash?
www.reef2reef.com
not by overcleaning it can't crash. it can only crash if you partially rinse and pump filth back into the display or if the canister filter is part of a power outage and we're gone, not there to clean it before power restoration, and ultimate filth is pumped back into the tank
canister filters and hang on back filters are miniature liabilities in this way, although they certainly aren't harmful when up and running and decently clean.
takeaway: the bacteria we rob from the system by completely removing the canister or hang on back filter simply do not matter, the live rocks in the reef display are enough.
*other setups like freshwater systems need this extra surface area for nitrite conversion (ammonia is not dangerous in freshwater setups in the levels we see normally) we've all been initially trained on that freshwater setups that the filter media is required to survive - we tend to view reef tanks the same way.
you'd be amazed at the number of reefers nowadays who still believe a canister filter cannot be removed immediately without a cycle. **they buy bottle bac to replace "lost" bacteria, which is wasting money, and that's why we take time to discuss it here in the updated terms relevant to reef tanks. Quarantine setups obviously can benefit from extra surface area, for ammonia control, as they're lacking rocks in the display.
Lastly, an actual reef tank work job that utilizes this rule and if we were wrong, this guy's system would be dead (we removed a huge degree of surface area by removing his remote DSB without any ramp down)
www.reef2reef.com
that remote dsb was huge it had 3x more surface area than anyone's canister filter setup, that's like instantly removing 5 canister filters all at once.
If I clean my canister filter too much on a reef tank can it crash?
Filter change priority
I have a fluval 207. For the month to month changes is there a specific order to start with first?
www.reef2reef.com
not by overcleaning it can't crash. it can only crash if you partially rinse and pump filth back into the display or if the canister filter is part of a power outage and we're gone, not there to clean it before power restoration, and ultimate filth is pumped back into the tank
canister filters and hang on back filters are miniature liabilities in this way, although they certainly aren't harmful when up and running and decently clean.
takeaway: the bacteria we rob from the system by completely removing the canister or hang on back filter simply do not matter, the live rocks in the reef display are enough.
*other setups like freshwater systems need this extra surface area for nitrite conversion (ammonia is not dangerous in freshwater setups in the levels we see normally) we've all been initially trained on that freshwater setups that the filter media is required to survive - we tend to view reef tanks the same way.
you'd be amazed at the number of reefers nowadays who still believe a canister filter cannot be removed immediately without a cycle. **they buy bottle bac to replace "lost" bacteria, which is wasting money, and that's why we take time to discuss it here in the updated terms relevant to reef tanks. Quarantine setups obviously can benefit from extra surface area, for ammonia control, as they're lacking rocks in the display.
Lastly, an actual reef tank work job that utilizes this rule and if we were wrong, this guy's system would be dead (we removed a huge degree of surface area by removing his remote DSB without any ramp down)
Removing remote deep sand bed
I setup a removable deep sand bed in my sump 9 months ago but now I’d like to remove it to give me more room in the sump. What do you think the impact to tank chemistry might be and how to mitigate any negatives?
www.reef2reef.com
that remote dsb was huge it had 3x more surface area than anyone's canister filter setup, that's like instantly removing 5 canister filters all at once.
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OP
OP
exercising this rule in the mind so we understand it via extreme examples:
any reef tank on this site, any one, can go get 5 canister filters packed with biomedia/surface area and install them, leave them in place half a year. (you'll have plenty of flow that's for sure lol)
they'll be completely self cycled and absolutely packed with bacteria that share in the ammonia removal duties along with the surface area we already had in the rocks before the test canisters were added.
at that half year mark, we can simply unplug all canister filters, that's 5 at once, and the system will not show even a mini cycle on a calibrated seneye. that should help envision how useless extra surface area is for reef tanks, if mini cycles were true that seneye would lose ammonia control until bacteria "built up" back on the rocks. they don't
anyone with a running seneye can replicate this experiment in a test bucket and let us know the results.
**side rule observation of updated cycling science is seen in this test just the same: no extra feed and NO extra bacteria had to be added to the system, to fill up 5x new canisters in about 30-60 days with a complete set of filter bacteria. most reefers see this as a need/requirement. the truth is your aquatic systems will plate new filter bacteria onto any new surfaces added because new real estate exists for them to grab onto, your current feed rates do not have to increase. that's a big hidden factor most reefers would never believe, but its a fact.
the reason your own systems don't just fill to the brim with bacteria is that you run high water shear motion (reef tanks vs stilled bogs) and this shears bacteria off your rocks as they stack on one another and get subject to removal, then your export systems/water changes/skimmers remove that bacteria.
your own systems are producing copious extra bacteria from the feed you provide, so as soon as you give a new surface time to gain them, the bacteria have a new place to attach and won't peel off and will be immune to tank water shear.
this is the nature of filter bacteria on reef surfaces. the people who sell bacteria cultures want you focused on the number of cells/bacteria/ but the hidden truth is the surface area is what matters, we get the bacteria free of charge.
any reef tank on this site, any one, can go get 5 canister filters packed with biomedia/surface area and install them, leave them in place half a year. (you'll have plenty of flow that's for sure lol)
they'll be completely self cycled and absolutely packed with bacteria that share in the ammonia removal duties along with the surface area we already had in the rocks before the test canisters were added.
at that half year mark, we can simply unplug all canister filters, that's 5 at once, and the system will not show even a mini cycle on a calibrated seneye. that should help envision how useless extra surface area is for reef tanks, if mini cycles were true that seneye would lose ammonia control until bacteria "built up" back on the rocks. they don't
anyone with a running seneye can replicate this experiment in a test bucket and let us know the results.
**side rule observation of updated cycling science is seen in this test just the same: no extra feed and NO extra bacteria had to be added to the system, to fill up 5x new canisters in about 30-60 days with a complete set of filter bacteria. most reefers see this as a need/requirement. the truth is your aquatic systems will plate new filter bacteria onto any new surfaces added because new real estate exists for them to grab onto, your current feed rates do not have to increase. that's a big hidden factor most reefers would never believe, but its a fact.
the reason your own systems don't just fill to the brim with bacteria is that you run high water shear motion (reef tanks vs stilled bogs) and this shears bacteria off your rocks as they stack on one another and get subject to removal, then your export systems/water changes/skimmers remove that bacteria.
your own systems are producing copious extra bacteria from the feed you provide, so as soon as you give a new surface time to gain them, the bacteria have a new place to attach and won't peel off and will be immune to tank water shear.
this is the nature of filter bacteria on reef surfaces. the people who sell bacteria cultures want you focused on the number of cells/bacteria/ but the hidden truth is the surface area is what matters, we get the bacteria free of charge.
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I honestly (no offense Brandon) can't fathom why you guys insist on making this so insanely complicated. Put water in tank, nitrifying bacteria grow. End of story... but not a "reef".
If you put just dry rock in - things will takes many weeks to colonize, but they will just because there is water and atmosphere with stuff in it.
Add bottle back or a lump of something else already colonized... things move faster.
Throw in something that will decay or poop or pour in ammonia directly, things will move even faster.
Use all 'Live" rock or sand or both - and you may (or may not) be in a better boat and may or may not see a large spike in ammonia before things reach equilibrium. Why, we can't quantify the die off or the life on the rock to begin with.
The issue is that a COMPLETE CYCLE (no such thing anyway) does not a reef make.
All of this fretting and hand wringing about "is my cycle done" only leads to the engrained belief that once somebody says "yes" - then the "reef" is ready for anything that you throw at it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
There is a LOT more than just nitrifying bacteria that must come and go before the system reaches a mature enough state to support whatever is thrown at it. There are numerous other fauna/flora that must populate and find equilibrium. There just is not shortcut in terms of a mature reef. Sure you can safe a few days with a bottle of bacteria or a dead shrimp, but there is no shortcut to "live rock" and "live sand" and until you have those in place, you will be hard pressed to keep coral alive or any semblance of a moderate to heavy bio-load.
If you put just dry rock in - things will takes many weeks to colonize, but they will just because there is water and atmosphere with stuff in it.
Add bottle back or a lump of something else already colonized... things move faster.
Throw in something that will decay or poop or pour in ammonia directly, things will move even faster.
Use all 'Live" rock or sand or both - and you may (or may not) be in a better boat and may or may not see a large spike in ammonia before things reach equilibrium. Why, we can't quantify the die off or the life on the rock to begin with.
The issue is that a COMPLETE CYCLE (no such thing anyway) does not a reef make.
All of this fretting and hand wringing about "is my cycle done" only leads to the engrained belief that once somebody says "yes" - then the "reef" is ready for anything that you throw at it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
There is a LOT more than just nitrifying bacteria that must come and go before the system reaches a mature enough state to support whatever is thrown at it. There are numerous other fauna/flora that must populate and find equilibrium. There just is not shortcut in terms of a mature reef. Sure you can safe a few days with a bottle of bacteria or a dead shrimp, but there is no shortcut to "live rock" and "live sand" and until you have those in place, you will be hard pressed to keep coral alive or any semblance of a moderate to heavy bio-load.
CoastalTownLayabout
Active Member
It’s complicated by the implication that bacterial starter products will somehow provide a quicker route to livestock addition. I haven’t tested during an initial cycle for donkeys. It’s like waking up every hour from 7pm to check if tomorrow is coming.
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Bacterial products do provide a quicker route to livestock addition than starting with dry rock alone or dry rock and a dead shrimp or live clown or whatever. It is not magic, it is a dose of nitrifying bacteria to kickstart colonization.
The point is that the presence nitrifying bacteria and drop in ammonia is just the first milestone in LONG road to an ecosystem that can support what most of us would consider a healthy reef.
Thread after thread after thread of disaster.... it is not the bottle bac's fault. It is the absolute crap advice that is the "new way to start a tank". I don't give a hoot of you have a clown on day 1 or wait until day 15 and it lives. Unless you started with HEALTHY FRESH LIVE ROCK then your tank is nowhere near ready for a heavy bio-load or coral.
Mind you we are talking about a reef system... not an empty glass tank and a sponge filter for QT and no appreciable light.. Two wholly different beasts.
OP
OP
Your opinions BeanAnimal would stand out more to me if they were reflections of work threads you ran vs dry nonspecific critiques of mine
At least I'm trying to give pertinent jobs where we used these rules prior, in threads where other people's reefs could die from bad science
If it comes so natural to you both, feel free to link me some of your work threads so I can pattern them
Either one of you do any big jobs on file using atypical means to accomplish a goal, where a cycle was preserved in unexpected ways? That would be relevant to see, relevant to the thread on cycling
Inventing the bean animal flow grate is a decent work thread accomplishment by the way but it's a cycle gimme
What if I think everything seems easy to you two because all your post examples involve your own tank, where you get to shape the feedback all rosy. I'm searching for original thought in the response just above...
At least I'm trying to give pertinent jobs where we used these rules prior, in threads where other people's reefs could die from bad science
If it comes so natural to you both, feel free to link me some of your work threads so I can pattern them
Either one of you do any big jobs on file using atypical means to accomplish a goal, where a cycle was preserved in unexpected ways? That would be relevant to see, relevant to the thread on cycling
Inventing the bean animal flow grate is a decent work thread accomplishment by the way
but it's a cycle gimmeWhat if I think everything seems easy to you two because all your post examples involve your own tank, where you get to shape the feedback all rosy. I'm searching for original thought in the response just above...
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Respectfully, I have absolutely zero desire to read or participate in work threads. The context, proof or correlations contained within not being relevant to the point I have attempted to make.
I appreciate that fact that you are trying to apply the scientific method to understand "tank cycling" and said science appears to be your passion. I applaud you for the interest. You want to quantify/predict/prove the "cycle" stages to the day, hour, minute, whatever. That is great and actually pretty neat from a scientific standpoint.
However, just because the science underlying something is complex does not mean that every person that steps foot in this hobby should be bludgeoned by it.
Every person who even mentions the word "cycle" or "ammonia" is drowned with all of this and end up with startup advice that encourages short cuts when people should be learning patience.
A healthy well balanced reef takes time. Getting a fish wet an hour or a week sooner is pointless, even if the science can be nailed down.
No work thread... Just me tired of floods.Inventing the bean animal flow grate is a decent work thread accomplishment by the way
So again, not beating you up over the passion for the science... Just dumbfounded as to why this has to be so complex in context to people new to the hobby...
CoastalTownLayabout
Active Member
Your opinions BeanAnimal would stand out more to me if they were reflections of work threads you ran vs dry nonspecific critiques of mine
At least I'm trying to give pertinent jobs where we used these rules prior, in threads where other people's reefs could die from bad science
If it comes so natural to you both, feel free to link me some of your work threads so I can pattern them
Either one of you do any big jobs on file using atypical means to accomplish a goal, where a cycle was preserved in unexpected ways? That would be relevant to see, relevant to the thread on cycling
Inventing the bean animal flow grate is a decent work thread accomplishment by the way
What if I think everything seems easy to you two because all your post examples involve your own tank, where you get to shape the feedback all rosy. I'm searching for original thought in the response just above...
The initial cycle should come naturally to everyone, it should be easy for everyone. Have bacteria recently changed their habits? Have they decided to down tools? Do they only work a four day week now? Have they unionised and gone on strike seeking better conditions?
Initial cycling is dead set the easiest hurdle to jump. I thought this was exhibit A of your prosecution?
I enjoy your steam of consciousness posts but if you can edit your original post #1 can I suggest that you add an exec summary at the top that routinely updates and distills the findings of your work threads into the simple steps or need to knows.
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