velvet in FOWLR tank, urgent help..

sensei

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I just saw velvet in a tang that I added to a folwr tank.
I quarentined the fish with TTM but unfortunatelly I was not able to detect velvet while in qt or in observation

I have 5 fish and two rose buble tip anenomes in FOLWR tank.

can I add CP to a FOWLR tank to treat the whole tank?

is the treatment 80mg / gal of cloroquine phosphate or of cloroquine base??

should I turn off the skimmer in that tank??

would CP do any harm to the live rock if I do in tank treatment?

thanks a lot for your help
 
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Though I doubt your anemones will tolerate the Copper, I let others give you some specifics regarding your questions. But I ‘nuked’ Velvet in a FOWLR display tank more than once. You need to do some reading up (search function) here on R2R before you go a rather drastic route. Best wishes!
 

Sabellafella

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I just saw velvet in a tang that I added to a folwr tank.
I quarentined the fish with TTM but unfortunatelly I was not able to detect velvet while in qt or in observation

I have 5 fish and two rose buble tip anenomes in FOLWR tank.

can I add CP to a FOWLR tank to treat the whole tank?

is the treatment 80mg / gal of cloroquine phosphate or of cloroquine base??

should I turn off the skimmer in that tank??

would CP do any harm to the live rock if I do in tank treatment?

thanks a lot for your help
I believe chloroquine p doesn't effect your bio bacteria but it definitely does suppress the fishes appetite. Definitely consider using the cp, you'll have to find the dosing instructions on here since I don't know by hand. You can also nuke the display with copper but it'll most likely kill a decent amount of bacteria, probably would cause more issues then what your currently dealing with. The nems have to come out for sure. Either way, a separate QT could always help!
 
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sensei

sensei

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@Jay Hemdal

I already took out the 2 rose buble tip anenomes in FOWLR,
I dosed of dosed 20mg/l of cloroquine base
I calculated 150g of water in my FOWLR

can I keep my skimmer on ?
cloroquine phosphate is soluble in water so the skimmer should not take the medicine out of the water

thanks for your reply
 

Sabellafella

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I would run the medication with the skimmer. Id be more focused toward cp most likely will degrade in a saltwater environment. You may have to add small amounts daily since it needs to stay at therapeutic levels. It's such a wonderful treatment yet we can't test for it.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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In my opinion, you should run your skimmer without the collection cup while dosing. Watch the ammonia level, sometimes CP kills off enough of the microbiome to cause a rise. TTM doesn’t work well on true velvet.
Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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In my opinion, you should run your skimmer without the collection cup while dosing. Watch the ammonia level, sometimes CP kills off enough of the microbiome to cause a rise. TTM doesn’t work well on true velvet.
Jay
Thanks Jay,
can you confirm is the calculations of Chloroquine should be done with Chloroquine base and not Chloroquine Phospate?

250mg of Chloroquine Phosphate is equivalent to 150mg of Chloroquine base

I dosed according to the following calculations:
150g * 20mg /l /266= 11.28g of chloroquine base

waiting for your reply

thanks
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks Jay,
can you confirm is the calculations of Chloroquine should be done with Chloroquine base and not Chloroquine Phospate?

250mg of Chloroquine Phosphate is equivalent to 150mg of Chloroquine base

I dosed according to the following calculations:
150g * 20mg /l /266= 11.28g of chloroquine base

waiting for your reply

thanks
That’s a very good question, in all of my calculations, I used chloroquine phosphate calculated as 100% activity. This is consistent with how formalin is dosed - considered 100% despite it being only 37% formaldehyde. I can’t speak to how others have dosed this.
I also no longer dose at 20 mg/l, I was seeing too many toxic events. I now dose at 12 or 15, and then bump the dose up if I’m not seeing any control.
Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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That’s a very good question, in all of my calculations, I used chloroquine phosphate calculated as 100% activity. This is consistent with how formalin is dosed - considered 100% despite it being only 37% formaldehyde. I can’t speak to how others have dosed this.
I also no longer dose at 20 mg/l, I was seeing too many toxic events. I now dose at 12 or 15, and then bump the dose up if I’m not seeing any control.
Jay
I dosed 20mg/l of choroquine base yesterday.
I could do some water change to lower the concentration, however the tang looks worst than yesterday. full of Troponds today but it is still swiming with no other symptoms. In addition you can see the small dots in a Heniachus BF, but it is still not bad as the tang

every fish is alive today. just 12 hours of CP
not sure if I should just wait or if I should do something else??

please let me know what you think


what are the toxic effects you have seen at 20mg/l?



thanks
 

Jay Hemdal

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I dosed 20mg/l of choroquine base yesterday.
I could do some water change to lower the concentration, however the tang looks worst than yesterday. full of Troponds today but it is still swiming with no other symptoms. In addition you can see the small dots in a Heniachus BF, but it is still not bad as the tang

every fish is alive today. just 12 hours of CP
not sure if I should just wait or if I should do something else??

please let me know what you think


what are the toxic effects you have seen at 20mg/l?



thanks
It can take up to 72 hours for any ich medication to really begin to work. I think you need to stay the course, as jumping from treatment to treatment brings on a whole other set of issues.

The toxicity issues we saw was rapid, unexplained death in fish that had predisposing liver issues (which showed no clinical signs). So - a group of healthy young lionfish were dosed with CP, and died that afternoon, having just fed hours before. We also would have smaller fish just up and die with no signs of disease.

Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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It can take up to 72 hours for any ich medication to really begin to work. I think you need to stay the course, as jumping from treatment to treatment brings on a whole other set of issues.

The toxicity issues we saw was rapid, unexplained death in fish that had predisposing liver issues (which showed no clinical signs). So - a group of healthy young lionfish were dosed with CP, and died that afternoon, having just fed hours before. We also would have smaller fish just up and die with no signs of disease.

Jay
Thanks Jay,

I just saw the fish and now. We are 20 hrs after my dose of CP, and the tang that looked bad in the morning full of troponds looks better, and the Heniachus BF that had little bit of dots in the morning looks clean.

the only thing is that the tank looks cloudy since I dosed CP using tablets for human consumption and they have fillers as zinc dioxide, etc and I have the skimmer on with out the collection cup.

In addition the fish are not eating as much as before but they eat a little bit.

as you know I dosed 20mg/l of chloroquine base and your dose was of chloroine phosphate, so my question is:

should I put the colection cup in the skimmer for a couple of hours so the the cloudiness in the water disapears??

should I do a water change tomorrow to reduce the concentration of chloroquine in water, according to my calculations, the amount of Chloroquine Phosphate the I dosed is 33 mg/l equivalent to 20mg/l of chloroquine base

until now all fish are alive.

please let me know what you think


Thanks a lot
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks Jay,

I just saw the fish and now. We are 20 hrs after my dose of CP, and the tang that looked bad in the morning full of troponds looks better, and the Heniachus BF that had little bit of dots in the morning looks clean.

the only thing is that the tank looks cloudy since I dosed CP using tablets for human consumption and they have fillers as zinc dioxide, etc and I have the skimmer on with out the collection cup.

In addition the fish are not eating as much as before but they eat a little bit.

as you know I dosed 20mg/l of chloroquine base and your dose was of chloroine phosphate, so my question is:

should I put the colection cup in the skimmer for a couple of hours so the the cloudiness in the water disapears??

should I do a water change tomorrow to reduce the concentration of chloroquine in water, according to my calculations, the amount of Chloroquine Phosphate the I dosed is 33 mg/l equivalent to 20mg/l of chloroquine base

until now all fish are alive.

please let me know what you think


Thanks a lot
Oh! I didn’t realize you were using CP with filler/binders, I have no idea what effect that may have on your tank, zinc is toxic to fish, but it depends on the form, oxides are less toxic than metal ions. Be sure to monitor the ammonia level daily.
Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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Oh! I didn’t realize you were using CP with filler/binders, I have no idea what effect that may have on your tank, zinc is toxic to fish, but it depends on the form, oxides are less toxic than metal ions. Be sure to monitor the ammonia level daily.
Jay
Jay,
please help me with the following doubt:

If I place the skimmer cup on the skimmers it will take out the stuff that did not disolve in water like the zinc dioxide and other fillers, etc. It will not take out the Choroquine Phosphate correct??

similar to how the skimmer works with NO3, it takes out organic matter before it decomposes into NO3 in water but can not skimm the disolved NO3 that is already in water

please tell me what you think
thanks a lot
 

Jay Hemdal

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Jay,
please help me with the following doubt:

If I place the skimmer cup on the skimmers it will take out the stuff that did not disolve in water like the zinc dioxide and other fillers, etc. It will not take out the Choroquine Phosphate correct??

similar to how the skimmer works with NO3, it takes out organic matter before it decomposes into NO3 in water but can not skimm the disolved NO3 that is already in water

please tell me what you think
thanks a lot
I've never dosed CP on a tank with a skimmer, so I can't tell you if the molecule is large enough to be removed by skimming or not - it also depends on the electrical charge of the molecule I think, whether it has an affinity for binding with other polar molecules or not. Likewise, I can't say if the binders used will be removed by skimming.

Did I show you this article I wrote:

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/


Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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I've never dosed CP on a tank with a skimmer, so I can't tell you if the molecule is large enough to be removed by skimming or not - it also depends on the electrical charge of the molecule I think, whether it has an affinity for binding with other polar molecules or not. Likewise, I can't say if the binders used will be removed by skimming.

Did I show you this article I wrote:

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/


Jay
I will put the skimmer cup for a couple of hours and see it tank clears from the cloudiness. I am sure it is the insoluble fillers of the tablets that I used

I am have a degree in pharmaceutical sciences, I am thinking in using an UV spectrophotometer to analize the water and get the concentration of CP in the tank. I will see if it is feasable for me with the equipments on hand.

I found that article, and read it several times before I dosed..
I realized it was written by you 2 days ago.
excelent write up.

I will keep you posted of any progress

thanks a lot professor!
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks, kind of old material, I wish I had time to update it!
Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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I've never dosed CP on a tank with a skimmer, so I can't tell you if the molecule is large enough to be removed by skimming or not - it also depends on the electrical charge of the molecule I think, whether it has an affinity for binding with other polar molecules or not. Likewise, I can't say if the binders used will be removed by skimming.

Did I show you this article I wrote:

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/


Jay
Jay
I need to treat the fish with CP for 30 days but since I am treating the fish inside the FOWLR I would need to treat for 6 weeks with CP correct??

Thanks
 

Jay Hemdal

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Jay
I need to treat the fish with CP for 30 days but since I am treating the fish inside the FOWLR I would need to treat for 6 weeks with CP correct??

Thanks
I'm sorry, I don't understand - FOWLR or not, the treatment should be 30 days I think. I've never treated CP that long. Even 30 days is tricky if you don't have a spectrophotometer to measure the remaining CP.

Jay
 
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sensei

sensei

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I'm sorry, I don't understand - FOWLR or not, the treatment should be 30 days I think. I've never treated CP that long. Even 30 days is tricky if you don't have a spectrophotometer to measure the remaining CP.

Jay

Let me elaborate on my question :

I the fallow period for velvet in fishless tank to treat a tank is 6 weeks
 

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