Velvet or hyposalinity resistant flukes?

BannerFish

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So i got a long nose butterfly fish and a longfin fairy wrasse, put them in the QT but didn't start any medication. After about 3 days i noticed butterfly had erratic swimming, head twitching and fin twitching. No white spots or any other symptoms. wrasse is not showing any symptoms at all he is perfectly fine. butterfly on and off swims near the wrasse as if to get him cleaned. So i started Hypo salinity.

Salinity is at 1.009, it's been 4 days now no improvement at all. During this period i did 2 tank transfers as well.

Is this Velvet or am i dealing with some brackish water flukes? what are my treatment options?


thanks
 
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Suohhen

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I have never done hypo but like every treatment option it has its negatives. Some people claim it is harder on butterflies but everything I have seen is subjective opinion so idk. If you have or can get some prazipro that is a more consistent and safe treatment but I don't know from your description what you might be dealing with. Could simply be a stressed fish. A clear picture in white light or a video would help. Also maybe the experts can help @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081
 

Jay Hemdal

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So i got a long nose butterfly fish and a longfin fairy wrasse, put them in the QT but didn't start any medication. After about 3 days i noticed butterfly had erratic swimming, head twitching and fin twitching. No white spots or any other symptoms. wrasse is not showing any symptoms at all he is perfectly fine. butterfly on and off swims near the wrasse as if to get him cleaned. So i started Hypo salinity.

Salinity is at 1.009, it's been 4 days now no improvement at all. During this period i did 2 tank transfers as well.

Is this Velvet or am i dealing with some brackish water flukes? what are my treatment options?


thanks
Velvet certainly can thrive at low salinity, that is one of the drawbacks of that treatment. However, the primary, and sometimes only symptom of velvet is rapid breathing. If you aren't seeing that, you can rule out velvet.

1.009 is lower than you need to go for Neobenedenia flukes, but as long as the fish tolerate it, you're fine.

Although hypo will knock the flukes off fairly quickly, the fish's skin may take a few days to heal. Brackish water flukes are really most commonly seen in brackish water fish, or in dealer's tanks who deal with a lot of public aquarium fish - lookdowns, palometa, etc.

If you can post a video of the behavior, that might help.

Jay
 
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BannerFish

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Thanks Jay

Unfortunately the fish died last night. Yes i got the fish from an exporter. He dose deal with Brackish water fish.

I manged to get Prazi in the evening. I dosed as per the instruction after half hour the fish seemed completely normal. I really thought i will make it, but didn't :(

thanks

Faz
 

Suohhen

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Sorry for your loss of the butterfly. Long noses are such awesome fish. I have a Pyramid in qt rn hanging out with a Carpenter who seemed to like my overflow more than I do.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks Jay

Unfortunately the fish died last night. Yes i got the fish from an exporter. He dose deal with Brackish water fish.

I manged to get Prazi in the evening. I dosed as per the instruction after half hour the fish seemed completely normal. I really thought i will make it, but didn't :(

thanks

Faz
I know this doesn’t help, but there is one thing that could have happened here: when fish have severe flukes and the treatment works well, all of the flukes drop off of the fish at once, leaving tiny holes all over the fish’s skin, and they bleed out. There isn’t anything you can do because the fish will die if you don’t treat....
Sorry
Jay
 
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BannerFish

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I know this doesn’t help, but there is one thing that could have happened here: when fish have severe flukes and the treatment works well, all of the flukes drop off of the fish at once, leaving tiny holes all over the fish’s skin, and they bleed out. There isn’t anything you can do because the fish will die if you don’t treat....
Sorry
Jay
Hello Jay

So i got some more fish from the same place. New fish also has the same issue. this time i started with Prazi from day one but doesn't seems to help. Head twitching and scratching continues while in Prazi. salinity is at 1.010

However freshwater dip seems to help. After i give them a freshwater dip in the morning they are fine for the day. Next day they start to twitch and scratch again. I've been giving them fresh water dips for 2 days in a row.

All the fish are eating well despite the twitch.

If i continue with the FWD daily would it cure this situation?

Also i do not have to facility for TTM

thanks

Faz
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hello Jay

So i got some more fish from the same place. New fish also has the same issue. this time i started with Prazi from day one but doesn't seems to help. Head twitching and scratching continues while in Prazi. salinity is at 1.010

However freshwater dip seems to help. After i give them a freshwater dip in the morning they are fine for the day. Next day they start to twitch and scratch again. I've been giving them fresh water dips for 2 days in a row.

All the fish are eating well despite the twitch.

If i continue with the FWD daily would it cure this situation?

Also i do not have to facility for TTM

thanks

Faz
Prazi + low salinity should have the same benefit (actually longer-lasting) than a FW dip would have. Flukes cannot return that fast after a FW dip though - so something else must be going on. For a fluke to come back after a dip, the eggs still in the tank must hatch out, the free swimming larva then need to find a fish host and then turn into adult flukes - that process takes days to weeks, not just one day, I use FW dips mostly as a diagnostic tool, I examine the dip water afterwards with a microscvope for flukes. Have you seen any flukes in the dip water?

Jay
 
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BannerFish

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Prazi + low salinity should have the same benefit (actually longer-lasting) than a FW dip would have. Flukes cannot return that fast after a FW dip though - so something else must be going on. For a fluke to come back after a dip, the eggs still in the tank must hatch out, the free swimming larva then need to find a fish host and then turn into adult flukes - that process takes days to weeks, not just one day, I use FW dips mostly as a diagnostic tool, I examine the dip water afterwards with a microscvope for flukes. Have you seen any flukes in the dip water?

Jay
No there is nothing after the FWD. container is clean

Is there any other treatment that you can think of ?

This is definitely not ich or velvet. No heavy breathing no white spots.
 

Jay Hemdal

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No there is nothing after the FWD. container is clean

Is there any other treatment that you can think of ?

This is definitely not ich or velvet. No heavy breathing no white spots.
Sorry, no I can’t think of what this could be. What if you wait a few days and try the FW dip again, just to confirm that it is providing some benefit?
Jay
 
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BannerFish

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Sorry, no I can’t think of what this could be. What if you wait a few days and try the FW dip again, just to confirm that it is providing some benefit?
Jay
Hi Jay

:) Tried to do that but couldn't. Till the third day evening fish were fine but in the evening one of them started to twitch, it was hard to watch so gave them a FWD. checked the bucket there was nothing at the bottom.

In the QT tank Ammonia was creeping up so decided to do a full water change. washed the tank with citric acid and let it dry for 4 hours then refilled the tank.

Today it's the 5th day so far so good no issues at all, fish are eating well. keeping an eye on for any symptom.

One thing i didn't mention was that they are tangs. Convict, Cole and Double banded tang.

one more observation, Just before they twitch they would hang in the water column like an Anthias would. thought that is strange for a tang to do.

At the beginning before any FWD Convict would sometimes cartwheel.

putting everything down so if someone else also comes across the same issue :)

thanks

Faz
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi Jay

:) Tried to do that but couldn't. Till the third day evening fish were fine but in the evening one of them started to twitch, it was hard to watch so gave them a FWD. checked the bucket there was nothing at the bottom.

In the QT tank Ammonia was creeping up so decided to do a full water change. washed the tank with citric acid and let it dry for 4 hours then refilled the tank.

Today it's the 5th day so far so good no issues at all, fish are eating well. keeping an eye on for any symptom.

One thing i didn't mention was that they are tangs. Convict, Cole and Double banded tang.

one more observation, Just before they twitch they would hang in the water column like an Anthias would. thought that is strange for a tang to do.

At the beginning before any FWD Convict would sometimes cartwheel.

putting everything down so if someone else also comes across the same issue :)

thanks

Faz

I'm not sure about washing the tank with citric acid. If you washed all wetted surfaces, then you impacted all of the beneficial bacteria and the ammonia is just going to rebound. Since the fish are the primary vector for any disease going on here, washing the tank out and then putting the same fish back in serves no purpose. I've seen tanks that can build up 1 ppm of ammonia per day if there is no biofilter. That means that 100% water changes per day would be required.

Jay
 

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I have never done hypo but like every treatment option it has its negatives. Some people claim it is harder on butterflies but everything I have seen is subjective opinion so idk. If you have or can get some prazipro that is a more consistent and safe treatment but I don't know from your description what you might be dealing with. Could simply be a stressed fish. A clear picture in white light or a video would help. Also maybe the experts can help @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081
Remove the wrasse if you use PraxiPro
 
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BannerFish

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I'm not sure about washing the tank with citric acid. If you washed all wetted surfaces, then you impacted all of the beneficial bacteria and the ammonia is just going to rebound. Since the fish are the primary vector for any disease going on here, washing the tank out and then putting the same fish back in serves no purpose. I've seen tanks that can build up 1 ppm of ammonia per day if there is no biofilter. That means that 100% water changes per day would be required.

Jay
Hi Jay

After i washed the tank i used some sponges from the DT to seed the QT. Ammonia wasn't an issue

I thought flukes release their eggs into the water column and after 3-4 days they hatch. so the reason why i changed the water 100% is to remove any eggs that maybe in the water column

"Since the fish are the primary vector for any disease going on here, washing the tank out and then putting the same fish back in serves no purpose."

Can you please explain the above a bit more? like does this mean the eggs are also on the fish itself?

update on the fish: They are fine now no signs of any discomfort. i would be monitoring them for a few weeks more and moving to the DT


Thanks

Faz
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi Jay

After i washed the tank i used some sponges from the DT to seed the QT. Ammonia wasn't an issue

I thought flukes release their eggs into the water column and after 3-4 days they hatch. so the reason why i changed the water 100% is to remove any eggs that maybe in the water column

"Since the fish are the primary vector for any disease going on here, washing the tank out and then putting the same fish back in serves no purpose."

Can you please explain the above a bit more? like does this mean the eggs are also on the fish itself?

update on the fish: They are fine now no signs of any discomfort. i would be monitoring them for a few weeks more and moving to the DT


Thanks

Faz
For Neobenedenia flukes, the eggs have sticky tendrils and settle out on solid objects in the tank, including fish's skin. Sterilizing a tank and then moving the same fish back into it will just carry back in any disease that they have. Neobenedenia eggs take up to 30 days to hatch.

There are other species of flukes - some give birth to live young. Others lay eggs, but I don't know if they stick to surfaces or not.

What you heard about them being in the water column doesn't refer to the eggs, but rather, the miracidium, a free-swimming, ciliated larva that hatches from the eggs.

Jay
 
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BannerFish

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For Neobenedenia flukes, the eggs have sticky tendrils and settle out on solid objects in the tank, including fish's skin. Sterilizing a tank and then moving the same fish back into it will just carry back in any disease that they have. Neobenedenia eggs take up to 30 days to hatch.

There are other species of flukes - some give birth to live young. Others lay eggs, but I don't know if they stick to surfaces or not.

What you heard about them being in the water column doesn't refer to the eggs, but rather, the miracidium, a free-swimming, ciliated larva that hatches from the eggs.

Jay
Thanks :)
 

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