Very frustrated...I can't keep SPS and idk why

[Chrisv.]

Fwiw this level of retraction is EXACTLY what I would expect if a fish was picking at it. I wish I had a photo: when my hermits crawl into my digitata colonies they retract almost this far. If it were happening for weeks, this is what I would expect.

 

[tdyrkacz]

Did I read that you have a trigger? I thought those aren't reef safe.

 

[jda]

Your water municipality can tell you if they use chloramines.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

The whole reason for the carbon block in a typical RO/DI setup is to remove chlorine.

Why would a typical RO/DI system with a carbon block not remove it?

Never could get a digi to grow in my tank, but acro's grow like weeds.

I would start with some simple SPS. Anything ORA, even green slimer is pretty easy as far as acro's go. Anything that has a hobby name(AKA collector name), I would stay away from for now.

I meant chloramine (that’s what I get for replying at 3am). The test kit I referred to is actually a chloramine test kit from HD. Need special chloramine filters to remove.

 

[undermind]

I wouldn't call it old either. However, many have been successful with it in a shorter amount of time and then there are others like me struggling.

So it's been 2 years. When would you say I'm able to add them? 3? 4? 10? I mean, I think it makes sense that it's been 2 years and if I'm having issues I should try to identify the source.

I totally understand that frustration, re:how long is this going to take – 3? 4? 10? But I totally agree with @Tamberav

Everybody throws around phrases like "you have to let your tank mature" or "your tank won't be ready for SPS for at least a year". But what is actually different in a mature tank? What actually happens in that year?

Perhaps different people have different reasons for saying that, but I think many have no reason. To me, the difference is biology. An established base of diverse bacteria, biome, little critters, etc.

However, many have been successful with it in a shorter amount of time and then there are others like me struggling.

That's true. But I think in all of those cases, there is biological base established early/quickly. It's the same as all the dino threads. You have 20 people saying "I never had this problem until I used dry rock", and then there's always one or two people that say "I started my tank with dry rock and dead sand and I never had problems". But I think they ended up with biology (and conditions) that have kept dinos at bay – one way or another. Even if the reason was they added so many corals so quickly that the frag plugs and corals themselves provided the life.

The rule that you have to wait a year is nonsense. You can add corals (even SPS) into a tank that's not even cycled. The needs of the corals just have to be met (see "one last point" below).

I actually have had the exact same path as you, and it even included the same problem coral as you (FF digi). I started up a new tank in 2018 with dry rock and dead sand. I went slow and waited about a year to add any SPS. I also started with a FF digi. But it perished quickly. I went through this process over and over and had the same results. My params appropriate, and were super stable. I've been keeping reef tanks for more than 20 years so I was scratching my head. I chased all the stuff like you are now – stray voltage, magnets, chlorine, chemical poisoning. After exhausting all of those possibilities, I decided to go beyond the bottled bacterias everyone was raving about, like MB7, and add REAL marine life. I put several pieces of aquacultured LR from KP Aquatics, I bought some Hawaiian live sand and wonder mud from IPSF, I bought some live rock rubble from Aquabiomics, and scored a couple pieces of actual ocean LR that my LFS somehow scored. So back to the SPS: I added a few new acropora and boom. They're thriving. And it's stayed that way ever since.

And in addition to being able to keep SPS in that tank, it wiped out dinos that had been lingering.

People are starting to call "bacterial diversity" and "microbiome" buzzwords. Go ahead. The fact is, we need it. And it's not getting in our tanks without adding it.

One last point... I also simultaneously started another tank not too long after the one described above. That one got 100% KP Aquatics live rock. I observed it for a few days and added 2 pieces of acropora 4 days in. Their growth and health actually exceeds the other tank I described above.

As for my advice, I would certainly finish testing all of the things you're working on now (stray voltage, chloramines, etc.) and I would indeed get an ICP. It's good peace of mind for sure. And after you've satisfied all of that, I would look at adding some "little" life.

 

[JCM]

I totally understand that frustration, re:how long is this going to take – 3? 4? 10? But I totally agree with @Tamberav

Everybody throws around phrases like "you have to let your tank mature" or "your tank won't be ready for SPS for at least a year". But what is actually different in a mature tank? What actually happens in that year?

Perhaps different people have different reasons for saying that, but I think many have no reason. To me, the difference is biology. An established base of diverse bacteria, biome, little critters, etc.


That's true. But I think in all of those cases, there is biological base established early/quickly. It's the same as all the dino threads. You have 20 people saying "I never had this problem until I used dry rock", and then there's always one or two people that say "I started my tank with dry rock and dead sand and I never had problems". But I think they ended up with biology (and conditions) that have kept dinos at bay – one way or another. Even if the reason was they added so many corals so quickly that the frag plugs and corals themselves provided the life.

The rule that you have to wait a year is nonsense. You can add corals (even SPS) into a tank that's not even cycled. The needs of the corals just have to be met (see "one last point" below).

I actually have had the exact same path as you, and it even included the same problem coral as you (FF digi). I started up a new tank in 2018 with dry rock and dead sand. I went slow and waited about a year to add any SPS. I also started with a FF digi. But it perished quickly. I went through this process over and over and had the same results. My params appropriate, and were super stable. I've been keeping reef tanks for more than 20 years so I was scratching my head. I chased all the stuff like you are now – stray voltage, magnets, chlorine, chemical poisoning. After exhausting all of those possibilities, I decided to go beyond the bottled bacterias everyone was raving about, like MB7, and add REAL marine life. I put several pieces of aquacultured LR from KP Aquatics, I bought some Hawaiian live sand and wonder mud from IPSF, I bought some live rock rubble from Aquabiomics, and scored a couple pieces of actual ocean LR that my LFS somehow scored. So back to the SPS: I added a few new acropora and boom. They're thriving. And it's stayed that way ever since.

And in addition to being able to keep SPS in that tank, it wiped out dinos that had been lingering.

People are starting to call "bacterial diversity" and "microbiome" buzzwords. Go ahead. The fact is, we need it. And it's not getting in our tanks without adding it.

One last point... I also simultaneously started another tank not too long after the one described above. That one got 100% KP Aquatics live rock. I observed it for a few days and added 2 pieces of acropora 4 days in. Their growth and health actually exceeds the other tank I described above.

As for my advice, I would certainly finish testing all of the things you're working on now (stray voltage, chloramines, etc.) and I would indeed get an ICP. It's good peace of mind for sure. And after you've satisfied all of that, I would look at adding some "little" life.

Heeding this advice would save alot of people alot of frustration. Really great post

 

[neonreef3d]

I had the same thing happen to me, until i started to dose PBNS from algae barn, bacteria is very important for corals...

 

[Biff0rz]

I totally understand that frustration, re:how long is this going to take – 3? 4? 10? But I totally agree with @Tamberav

Everybody throws around phrases like "you have to let your tank mature" or "your tank won't be ready for SPS for at least a year". But what is actually different in a mature tank? What actually happens in that year?

Perhaps different people have different reasons for saying that, but I think many have no reason. To me, the difference is biology. An established base of diverse bacteria, biome, little critters, etc.


That's true. But I think in all of those cases, there is biological base established early/quickly. It's the same as all the dino threads. You have 20 people saying "I never had this problem until I used dry rock", and then there's always one or two people that say "I started my tank with dry rock and dead sand and I never had problems". But I think they ended up with biology (and conditions) that have kept dinos at bay – one way or another. Even if the reason was they added so many corals so quickly that the frag plugs and corals themselves provided the life.

The rule that you have to wait a year is nonsense. You can add corals (even SPS) into a tank that's not even cycled. The needs of the corals just have to be met (see "one last point" below).

I actually have had the exact same path as you, and it even included the same problem coral as you (FF digi). I started up a new tank in 2018 with dry rock and dead sand. I went slow and waited about a year to add any SPS. I also started with a FF digi. But it perished quickly. I went through this process over and over and had the same results. My params appropriate, and were super stable. I've been keeping reef tanks for more than 20 years so I was scratching my head. I chased all the stuff like you are now – stray voltage, magnets, chlorine, chemical poisoning. After exhausting all of those possibilities, I decided to go beyond the bottled bacterias everyone was raving about, like MB7, and add REAL marine life. I put several pieces of aquacultured LR from KP Aquatics, I bought some Hawaiian live sand and wonder mud from IPSF, I bought some live rock rubble from Aquabiomics, and scored a couple pieces of actual ocean LR that my LFS somehow scored. So back to the SPS: I added a few new acropora and boom. They're thriving. And it's stayed that way ever since.

And in addition to being able to keep SPS in that tank, it wiped out dinos that had been lingering.

People are starting to call "bacterial diversity" and "microbiome" buzzwords. Go ahead. The fact is, we need it. And it's not getting in our tanks without adding it.

One last point... I also simultaneously started another tank not too long after the one described above. That one got 100% KP Aquatics live rock. I observed it for a few days and added 2 pieces of acropora 4 days in. Their growth and health actually exceeds the other tank I described above.

As for my advice, I would certainly finish testing all of the things you're working on now (stray voltage, chloramines, etc.) and I would indeed get an ICP. It's good peace of mind for sure. And after you've satisfied all of that, I would look at adding some "little" life.

This is a legit helpful post. Sounds like I'm buying some live rock in my near future lol. Do I need to swap out all of my current rock? Or can I just replace what I have in my sump? Thanks, your story gives me hope.

 

[undermind]

This is a legit helpful post. Sounds like I'm buying some live rock in my near future lol. Do I need to swap out all of my current rock? Or can I just replace what I have in my sump? Thanks, your story gives me hope.

Awesome! Yeah I believe any problem can be solved with patience and perseverance.

As for swapping out current rock with new live rock, there's no need to go too crazy. I think I missed the size of your tank. Did you say? Just replacing some of the pieces will have a large impact. I replaced only about 10-15% of mine when I added rock. But in my case, the LR was just part of a larger strategy to establish that diversity.

How much rock is in your sump?

 

[Ancient Mariner]

This is a legit helpful post. Sounds like I'm buying some live rock in my near future lol. Do I need to swap out all of my current rock? Or can I just replace what I have in my sump? Thanks, your story gives me hope.

Here’s a recent R2R article on developing biological diversity for a successful reef. In the comments I made a statement about reef keeping being an experiment in ecology nurturing ecological succession from one one biological stage to the next until reaching a climax community (ie a mature reef).

Creating Mature Food Webs and Nutrient Processing Pathways

Creating Mature Food Webs and Nutrient Processing Pathways by @ReefGeezer HI everyone. My name is John. I’m ReefGeezer on R2R. Here’s a picture of my 90 Gallon “Someday to be Reef” tank at about one year old. I had done some scrubbing of algae...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[bnord]

I agree with jda. Yes, insufficient light, insufficient flow, alk swings, fish, and inverts can definitely kill corals. But not like your pictures, not that I've ever seen. To me, that clearly looks like you have something nasty in your water. Big water changes and lots of carbon would be my first step.

when I am afraid something "toxic" has entered the tank, when I do carbon changes, I add MOL 10% Purit to the mix - just to cover bases
Agree the the sharp die-off is not improper flow or lowish PAR.
I would try buff up the water as above and large WC and another of the same coral if it is available - this time in a different height flow pattern...

And wholly agree with the biodiversity that comes with KP or other sources. Cooincidentally, just added a bunch of odd-ball stuff from IPSF... its all great stuff, and very cheap, compared to a couple of bottles of cultured pods...

 

[Yellowsound]

100% agree on all of the above comments on biodiversity!

Separately (but perhaps related), something caught my eye in your pics above: Your tank is close to 2 yrs old, but you do not have an abundance of coralline (from what I could see). Yes, there were some spots on the rock, pumps, and frag rack, but I would expect to see that amount after maybe 6 months.

Do you have urchins? Are you diligently cleaning coralline of of the back glass? Just wondering why you don’t have more coralline, and if this is maybe a puzzle piece…

 

[sneekapeek]

How’s your algae growth? If algae ain’t growing you are starving the tank.

 

[celebrityovernight]

By the looks of the corals it does not seem like it is related to:
-high nutrients
-par
-predation/fish
-flow (if it was getting blasted, you'd at least see some sort of polyp extension on the side that isn't getting blasted)
-tank age (i've kept sps in tanks as early as a few days after starting up, yes growth can be slower but usually a rapid mortality is due to some other underlying issue).

It honestly looks chemical like many have stated. If a icp test comes back clean, it may be you're running carbon or gfo too aggressively. I would honestly take the carbon and gfo offline and let the tank settle for a few weeks with small weekly water changes. After 2-3 weeks add some sps to a slow/medium flow area and observe/document its reaction over the next few days.

 

[Biff0rz]

Awesome! Yeah I believe any problem can be solved with patience and perseverance.

As for swapping out current rock with new live rock, there's no need to go too crazy. I think I missed the size of your tank. Did you say? Just replacing some of the pieces will have a large impact. I replaced only about 10-15% of mine when I added rock. But in my case, the LR was just part of a larger strategy to establish that diversity.

How much rock is in your sump?

233g, 275g total w sump. Sump is 40-50g

100% agree on all of the above comments on biodiversity!

Separately (but perhaps related), something caught my eye in your pics above: Your tank is close to 2 yrs old, but you do not have an abundance of coralline (from what I could see). Yes, there were some spots on the rock, pumps, and frag rack, but I would expect to see that amount after maybe 6 months.

Do you have urchins? Are you diligently cleaning coralline of of the back glass? Just wondering why you don’t have more coralline, and if this is maybe a puzzle piece…

I actually do have a lot, I can take some pics of where it's piling up. Thing is, when I had dino's, there was SO much GHA/Dino/Cyano/bs that it barely grew. It's not growing everywhere. And yes, I have 3 long spine urchins (for when I had the gha). They do work on the coralline though.

How’s your algae growth? If algae ain’t growing you are starving the tank.

Good - I grow a ton in my ATS and its on the glass, rocks, powerheads, blah blah blah everywhere

By the looks of the corals it does not seem like it is related to:
-high nutrients
-par
-predation/fish
-flow (if it was getting blasted, you'd at least see some sort of polyp extension on the side that isn't getting blasted)
-tank age (i've kept sps in tanks as early as a few days after starting up, yes growth can be slower but usually a rapid mortality is due to some other underlying issue).

It honestly looks chemical like many have stated. If a icp test comes back clean, it may be you're running carbon or gfo too aggressively. I would honestly take the carbon and gfo offline and let the tank settle for a few weeks with small weekly water changes. After 2-3 weeks add some sps to a slow/medium flow area and observe/document its reaction over the next few days.

Thanks, ICP is on its way. I run both carbon and GFO, what would you consider to be too aggressive? I can take both offline, but, it may throw the tank out of whack so I'm hesitant to do so. I could probably dial the gfo down slowly.

 

[sneekapeek]

233g, 275g total w sump. Sump is 40-50g


I actually do have a lot, I can take some pics of where it's piling up. Thing is, when I had dino's, there was SO much GHA/Dino/Cyano/bs that it barely grew. It's not growing everywhere. And yes, I have 3 long spine urchins (for when I had the gha). They do work on the coralline though.


Good - I grow a ton in my ATS and its on the glass, rocks, powerheads, blah blah blah everywhere


Thanks, ICP is on its way. I run both carbon and GFO, what would you consider to be too aggressive? I can take both offline, but, it may throw the tank out of whack so I'm hesitant to do so. I could probably dial the gfo down slowly.

It seems like your pets are starving! You run ats, gfo and carbon? You must feed heavily rich high phosphate foods….reef roids twice a day? Also, I’ve notice lighting will do that to a coral overnight. Not as much food available in conjunction with too high light. Doesn’t mean your lights are too high just means not enough nutrients to balance out the light intensity. I’ve seen my best growth when my algae was growing like gang works. Good luck buddy and hope you succeed!

 

[Biff0rz]

It seems like your pets are starving! You run ats, gfo and carbon? You must feed heavily rich high phosphate foods….reef roids twice a day? Also, I’ve notice lighting will do that to a coral overnight. Not as much food available in conjunction with too high light. Doesn’t mean your lights are too high just means not enough nutrients to balance out the light intensity. I’ve seen my best growth when my algae was growing like gang works. Good luck buddy and hope you succeed!

The tank has quite a bit of algea growing in it, even with those things. Check out the params, it's not like nitrates and po4 are super low or anything.

 

[undermind]

233g, 275g total w sump. Sump is 40-50g

As it pertains to replacing rock with live rock, I'd still stick with the 10-15% I mentioned, at a minimum. But that's not based on anything really except my own experiences. And if you decide to boost your biological diversity, tag me and I'll give you some more sources. I think using multiple sources is important.

You mentioned dinos/GHA/cyano/bs. How long ago was that? Did you get each of those, or a mix? And what did you do to fight it?

 

[z-reefer]

following as im having the exact same issue as you. I even tried a forest fire digi and it died in the same way, the only difference between our tanks is my phosphate is elevated hope you can figure it out

 

[celebrityovernight]

233g, 275g total w sump. Sump is 40-50g


I actually do have a lot, I can take some pics of where it's piling up. Thing is, when I had dino's, there was SO much GHA/Dino/Cyano/bs that it barely grew. It's not growing everywhere. And yes, I have 3 long spine urchins (for when I had the gha). They do work on the coralline though.


Good - I grow a ton in my ATS and its on the glass, rocks, powerheads, blah blah blah everywhere


Thanks, ICP is on its way. I run both carbon and GFO, what would you consider to be too aggressive? I can take both offline, but, it may throw the tank out of whack so I'm hesitant to do so. I could probably dial the gfo down slowly.

What’s your livestock and tank size? I would try to manage phosphates and nitrates through your ats and water changes alone. I think running carbon long term is a detriment in most cases. Use it sparingly to remove medication then remove it.

I would take both gfo and carbon offline and monitor your levels daily. Fix your feeding routine if you are seeing a steep rise in nitrates and phosphates.

Based on what I’m reading it sounds like you have a bit too much going on. The goal is to maintain the most stable conditions with the least amount of input into the system.