Very high PO4 level with no bad effects on corals

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taricha

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is calcium carbonate really the same as coral snow?

probably yes, but KZ will never say what's in Coral Snow - so hard to say that it's only that and nothing else.
Also don't confuse it with the "marine snow" in the ocean that is complex aggregation of natural organisms and particles.
 
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Yehuda Dana

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Interesting thing that I noticed with the coral-snow-plus is that when I dose it day after day - there is no difference (or mostly for 0.01-0.02 ppm) on PO4 level.

Any clue why is that?
 
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Hans-Werner

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How come?
I thought it will make them brownish... but color remains good as it was
Sorry, I did not go through the thread but want to answer your question directly: Phosphate doesn't make corals brown or brownish, it are the nitrogen compounds like nitrate or ammonium.

Very easy test: Carefully dose ammonium but avoid such miscalculations under all circumstances. You will notice an almost immediate darkening of corals, in just one or two days. Exception: Other nutrients like iron are limiting and avoiding browning.
 

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Sorry, I did not go through the thread but want to answer your question directly: Phosphate doesn't make corals brown or brownish, it are the nitrogen compounds like nitrate or ammonium.

Very easy test: Carefully dose ammonium but avoid such miscalculations under all circumstances. You will notice an almost immediate darkening of corals, in just one or two days. Exception: Other nutrients like iron are limiting and avoiding browning.
High Iron limiting browning? I was thinking too much, make them brown also, or I understand you wrong?
If phosphates make the coral not brown ,there is a reason we should control or reduce it or not? Should we not just take care of the nitrate?
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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High Iron limiting browning? I was thinking too much, make them brown also, or I understand you wrong?
If phosphates make the coral not brown ,there is a reason we should control or reduce it or not? Should we not just take care of the nitrate?

He means low iron limiting zooxanthellae growth, limiting browning.
 

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As far as I understand, the main reason we keep PO4 level is because high level will stop coral growth
do you know where this came from? I've seen a lot of people say it and I took it to heart too, but I can't find any research that says it's growth limiting. There is a study that went as high as 0.5 and found the coral grow very well but the skeleton was more brittle (not inherently bad for the coral i guess). A recent study had acros grow and breed in 0.9 PO4. I'm no longer sure it matters as much as we thought it did
 
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Yehuda Dana

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I can't tell my sources, but according to the research they did - it appears that in high PO4 corals will have toxic area between the skeleton and the tissue, which will eliminate the growth.

What I can see now days in my reef tank is:
When PO4 level was 2.5-0.35 - all corals (whatever survived) stopped growing.

When PO4 decreased below 0.30 - most of the corals began to grow again!

This is actually what I see and based on my current experience.
 

Hans-Werner

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High Iron limiting browning?
As Randy stated correctly, low iron limiting zooxanthellae growth and in this way browning. :)

I can't tell my sources, but according to the research they did - it appears that in high PO4 corals will have toxic area between the skeleton and the tissue, which will eliminate the growth.
This is from an old article of Simkiss. Meanwhile several trials have shown that in fact phosphate up to high concentrations increases calcification and skeletal growth.

However, in my experience the problem may come with the lowering of phosphate concentrations. Then indeed the skeleton seems to be "intoxicated", it is hard to get SPS, especially Acropora, growing at lowered phosphate concentrations.

If phosphates make the coral not brown ,there is a reason we should control or reduce it or not? Should we not just take care of the nitrate?
Yes, correct. Inceased phosphate concentrations of ca. 0.1 ppm seem to be suitable to induce iron and/or nitrogen limitation of zooxanthellae and in this way keep the colors of corals bright, a bit like glaced porcelain in Acropora.

It seems important to have a strategy to get there, i. e. low iron dosage, ignoring ICP-laboratory recommendations of iron dosing and "efficient" high-energy fish feeds, high in lipids to keep nitrogen excretion of fish low.

However, there are several ways leading to Rome, other strategies may work also, but in my eyes, corals growing under iron and nitrogen limitation are showing a very regular growth and a special look, at least for aquarium grown corals. Corals growing in reefs have the same or at least a very similar look.
 

taricha

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Interesting thing that I noticed with the coral-snow-plus is that when I dose it day after day - there is no difference (or mostly for 0.01-0.02 ppm) on PO4 level.

Any clue why is that?

@Dan_P might suggest that this is because the actual binding of PO4 by aragonite is a lot smaller than the hobby conventional wisdom.
And it's concentration-dependent, so if your PO4 is already low, the binding ability of CaCO3 might be undetectable.
 
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It’s interesting that your also getting burnt tips with high po4 when attempting to lower phosphate. My SPS always get ticked when I attempt to lower my phosphate, even with the smallest amount of GFO from .30. I leave it alone now, and my colonies are growing faster than ever… like someone said earlier, there may be problems when trying to reduce any amount of phosphate.

If you have burnt tips now, stop reducing phosphate and let your tank do it’s thing. I’ve been fighting this burnt tips with phosphate issue for a year and finally gave up. Only then, things turned around.
 

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Interesting thing that I noticed with the coral-snow-plus is that when I dose it day after day - there is no difference (or mostly for 0.01-0.02 ppm) on PO4 level.

Any clue why is that?
How large of an increase in PO4 concentration did you expect by adding this product?
 
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Superlightman

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As Randy stated correctly, low iron limiting zooxanthellae growth and in this way browning. :)


This is from an old article of Simkiss. Meanwhile several trials have shown that in fact phosphate up to high concentrations increases calcification and skeletal growth.

However, in my experience the problem may come with the lowering of phosphate concentrations. Then indeed the skeleton seems to be "intoxicated", it is hard to get SPS, especially Acropora, growing at lowered phosphate concentrations.


Yes, correct. Inceased phosphate concentrations of ca. 0.1 ppm seem to be suitable to induce iron and/or nitrogen limitation of zooxanthellae and in this way keep the colors of corals bright, a bit like glaced porcelain in Acropora.

It seems important to have a strategy to get there, i. e. low iron dosage, ignoring ICP-laboratory recommendations of iron dosing and "efficient" high-energy fish feeds, high in lipids to keep nitrogen excretion of fish low.

However, there are several ways leading to Rome, other strategies may work also, but in my eyes, corals growing under iron and nitrogen limitation are showing a very regular growth and a special look, at least for aquarium grown corals. Corals growing in reefs have the same or at least a very similar look.
OK thanks, to be sure to have unterstand, correct me if I wrong:
To get nice colours and good grow:
-we should keep Iron an nitrate low. ( what could be could be target numbers?)
- we should keep nitrate at least at 0,1 (this would mean also that the belief of keep phosphate around 0,03 for nice coulours was wrong), but there is a maximum we should better not exceed or not? If not that mean we could completely avoid and skip phosphate reduce as more would lead to better results?

I don't know if it is revelant but in the past when my phosphate went over 0,15 my kh consumption get lower, but shouldn't it not went higher if the corals growth more with higher phosphate levels?
 
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Yehuda Dana

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Sorry, I missed something

What is the possibility thar Coral Snow Plus isn’t all that effective?
I am using coral-snow-plus for the past weeks (over a month now), starting with PO4 level of over 2.5 and currently at 0.3.
During that period of time, I saw that it actually do what it supposed to.
But for a reason (which I really do not know, and actually searching for) PO4 reducing stopped...
Even when I once tried to double the amount dosed Coral-snow-plus - PO4 level remains with no change
 
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Hans-Werner

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we should keep nitrate at least at 0,1 (this would mean also that the belief of keep phosphate around 0,03 for nice coulours was wrong), but there is a maximum we should better not exceed or not? If not that mean we could completely avoid and skip phosphate reduce as more would lead to better results?
Nitrate concentrations is in my eyes negative at any concentration or irrelevant at best, at least for my suggested mode of coral care. Phosphate should be around 0.1 ppm, ca. 0.08 to 0.15 ppm. Up to at least 0.5 ppm also seems to work fine.
I don't know if it is revelant but in the past when my phosphate went over 0,15 my kh consumption get lower, but shouldn't it not went higher if the corals growth more with higher phosphate levels?
Corals are not the only KH consumers. Depending on your KH simple precipitation may consume a significant amount of the dosed KH. Most of the slurry in the gravel or sand is not organic but precipitate. I guess bacterial consumption of phosphate is causing this precipitate. At higher phosphate concentrations this precipitation may be reduced.
 
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Yehuda Dana

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Phosphate should be around 0.1 ppm, ca. 0.08 to 0.15 ppm. Up to at least 0.5 ppm also seems to work fine.
So in that case, now that my phosphate level is 0.3 - I should not push it down further by phosphate removers, but just let it down slow and steady "by nature"?
 

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