OP
OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
I will. I am trying very hard not to focus on that! It makes quarantine so much longer!
Victoria Music's Custom 180 Rebuild
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
How long to you plan on keeping him in QT?
OP
OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
Yesterday, I told my youngest 2 kids I was so tempted to put Mr. Foxface in the DT and they were both horrified. “No, don't do it mom. Be patient.” So we had a discussion on the merits of waiting and observing vs. having to remove all the fish from the DT again. Mr. Foxface will be undergoing the full observation period with formalin baths prior to transfering to a new clean tank.
One of the many things I am puzzling over is how does the formalin bath make all the parasites fall off? I know I read that one one of the studies I read. If anyone has a paper to share, please do.
One of the many things I am puzzling over is how does the formalin bath make all the parasites fall off? I know I read that one one of the studies I read. If anyone has a paper to share, please do.
OP
OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
Two weeks in this UV QT. Watch for a healthy weight gain. Then formalin bath, into new QT, then TTM, THEN 4 weeks OBSERVATIONAL QUARANTINE. No UV on this tank to observe for illness. What do you think? I am thinking of so many things. Should I do the TTM with peroxide or formalin baths? It makes sense.
I need a real keyboard.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
You probably don't want to know what I think
I would say that the TTM with peroxide is an interesting concept but has to be considered higher risk since it is very new. IF it works, it's likely the least harmful way we would have of treating fish.
OP
OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
I agree. Why not formalin? The cancer risk or other reason? —-I did not mean it like that. Gah!You probably don't want to know what I think
I would say that the TTM with peroxide is an interesting concept but has to be considered higher risk since it is very new. IF it works, it's likely the least harmful way we would have of treating fish.
I would probably do exactly what you did with anthias because they are the kind of fish that do not do well in a FOWLR TANK, or a bare QT. Which is why I will be avoiding them.
there are some fish that you just have to take the risk on if you desire to have them. (A school of anthias are worth it) To me, that does not mean that all other fish can also be dropped into the DT with that same risk. Perhaps you do not agree with that. I think that one of the traits of a “hardy” fish is that they are able to host a parasite without succumbing to it. They are more tolerant of a pathogen just as they are more tolerant of less than ideal aquarium environments. This makes them ideal vectors. Hense the Typhoid Mary of fishes. I do not want to give the fish in my care chemo or or irradiate them to sterilize them. I just want to take the best path to reduce pathogens passing to my established DT inhabitants, without damaging the new aquisitions.You know I am an PCU/ICU nurse. I deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis with my job. Pathogens, illness, disease, isolation, different types of isolation, mitigating risk to myself, other patients. Daily weighings risks to myself and others when treating patients with contagious vs. highly contagious virulent disease is a constant burden. I digress...
BUT I am pretty much stocking hardy fish that would even be good in a FOWLR. I just want to mitigate as many risks as I can safely. If you see something amiss in my plan please share. I will try not argue just for the sake of arguing.
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Have you given consideration to the fact TTM on a 72hour cycle only helps eradicate Ich, and not Velvet? I planned to do TTM, was a week away from my first fish, when I realized the sick fish I saw at one of my LfS was velvet infected, and thus TTM would be pointless.
I agree that TTm and peroxide would be the gentlest option, but the fact it’s only useful against 1 pathogen limits it’s utility for me. Having to then follow up with velvet strategy or copper anyway just adds more time, handling and therefore stress.
Just a thought, which I’m very sure you have considered already
Foxy is looking great. Good luck!
And yes- a school of anthias is definitely a worthwhile risk- which is why @Brew12 shenanigans have got me in conniptions. I actually just sent humblefish aquatics an email enquiring about dispars. I was reluctant to do so in the past because I think it’s unfair to ask them to do sensitive species at the pricepoint they are selling, but I just want to test the waters.
I agree that TTm and peroxide would be the gentlest option, but the fact it’s only useful against 1 pathogen limits it’s utility for me. Having to then follow up with velvet strategy or copper anyway just adds more time, handling and therefore stress.
Just a thought, which I’m very sure you have considered already
Foxy is looking great. Good luck!
And yes- a school of anthias is definitely a worthwhile risk- which is why @Brew12 shenanigans have got me in conniptions. I actually just sent humblefish aquatics an email enquiring about dispars. I was reluctant to do so in the past because I think it’s unfair to ask them to do sensitive species at the pricepoint they are selling, but I just want to test the waters.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
That is my concern. Both for the fish and for myself. Formalin is pretty serious stuff.
You are correct, I don't agree with this. If you aren't going to QT everything wet then I have shifted to feeling it is best to not prophylactically treat anything with chemicals. We know that copper, CP and formalin all damage the fish in one way or another. If we introduce a parasite via an invert or coral frag that fish likely has less chance to survive than if we hadn't treated him.To me, that does not mean that all other fish can also be dropped into the DT with that same risk. Perhaps you do not agree with that.
Obviously, this is the path I went down for 2 years and other than anthias and mandarin it worked well for me. But... I lived in fear every time I ordered inverts or coral. And then I see all these hobbyists around me that go to the LFS, buy a fish, put it in their systems, and their tanks continue to thrive. Combine that with all the fish dying in QT, failed fallow periods, and tank wipes on people who did treat every fish despite their best effort and I've decided to abandon those efforts.I just want to mitigate as many risks as I can safely. If you see something amiss in my plan please share. I will try not argue just for the sake of arguing.
We all have different end goals for our systems and different tolerance for risk. I have no issues with your treating fish the way you do. It's just not what I am going to do moving forward.
This is EXACTLY where I’m at now. I’ve been steadfast that everything in my DT is fully quarantined first. As a result, I’m a year in, my DT has no corals, I’ve lost 8 fish, i have no biodiversity because ALL of my rock was dead, I have a chrysophytes breakout due to low nutrients and I am paranoid about every purchase to the point I’ve stopped.
Yet I see posts on a local FB page where guys set up a tank using dechlorinated tap water, have anemones and 12 fish in a 40b, hammers, Duncan’s, scolys, white sand beds beautiful coralline live rock, fat mandarins and beautiful tumbling chaeto. You mention QT or Ich and they have *no idea what your talking about*. I even got scolded out of a thread for suggesting one dude was moving too fast putting an rbta in a 2 week old tank. 4 months later, it’s fine, btw.
I don’t get it. I just don’t.
And after spending so much time convincing my wife we HAD TO BE PATIENT and QT everything, plus the additional expense for 2-3 qt set ups, I can’t now just say ‘fk it’ and just dump them in the DT.
I just have to say the very things you all are talking about sent me down the road to using equipment design instead of medication. I was able to duplicate success time after time for multiple customers. I depended on a local DVM at Washington State University to help me with diagnosis and treatment when necessary. The equipment design for holding systems before the display solved the issue for me. Fish have something in or on them and it seems they manage just fine in natural sea water with over 1 million bacteria and viruses per milliliter.
Compromised immune systems are the biggest killer in my experience and very humble opinion.
Biodiversity is next in importance to me. I seem to have had the best experience with mature live rock with lots of biodiversity.
Compromised immune systems are the biggest killer in my experience and very humble opinion.
Biodiversity is next in importance to me. I seem to have had the best experience with mature live rock with lots of biodiversity.
I used a protein skimmer with ozone, trickle filter for biological, 5 micron mechanical, GAC chemical, then 45,000 micro watt or higher UV sterilizer as the final before return to the holding tanks. Trickle filter is one of the most responsive biological filters to bioload fluctuations I ever used. Old school now days LOL! These were multi tank holding systems so I could separate combative fish. Seeded the system with mature live rock to start biofiltration.
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OP
OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
I am so happy to hear so many thoughts on this topic. I thought I had a solid plan on my QT process. But I am really mulling this all over. In the mean time Mr. Foxface looks well, and is eating well so will he will continue to chill in the UV QT for now.
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OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
And UV QT is just fun to say.
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Victoria M
5000 Club Member
A long time ago, after I let my tank fallow due to cryptocarryon, I set up a 30 gallon Eclipse with LR and water from my tank. After two weeks of copper at my LFS I kept the fish in that tank for a month and then into the DT. I think I did that twice? That worked for those times. One fish was a yellow tang, can’t remember the other?
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OP
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Victoria M
5000 Club Member
you could but I think she would kill ya when you wiped out your tank. there has got to be a better way. It will come. in the mean time, I am done with copper. There was a reason I moved away from it in the first place. I used 10 days of CP for several treatment tanks, and that went well. I think that is much better than 30 days of copper, or even 14 days of copper. But that is just my off the cuff answer, don't hold me to that.
A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...during a big tank overhaul, all the old fish made it, all the new fish died. maybe one lived? I don't remember. But why? the old fish were overall much healthier with nutritional reserves, and a pretty decent immune response due to living in a good conditions for so long. the new fish were a train wreck, physiological stress and psychological stress. We all know that. What to do next. It will come to me.
OP
OP
Victoria M
5000 Club Member
@Brew12
all very fine points, and I agree with you 99.9%. I am still not going to put fish directly into my DT any time soon. But I am changing my quarantine practice, as you know.
With the difficulties I have faced with my aquariums it was sometimes the actions I took that caused the biggest problems.
I am thinking a lot about my current set up and how it could be improved with greater redundancy, equipment to reduce pathogens such as UV. for years I have been educating hobbyist that the small aquarium environment keeps the fish in close proximity to parasites during an out break and that in the ocean the animal is not usually completely overrun by the sheer numbers that can exists in the aquarium. right? we all know this can happen. But I am seeing that equipment can bring balance to the force. So I am really looking in that direction presently.
all very fine points, and I agree with you 99.9%. I am still not going to put fish directly into my DT any time soon. But I am changing my quarantine practice, as you know.
With the difficulties I have faced with my aquariums it was sometimes the actions I took that caused the biggest problems.
I am thinking a lot about my current set up and how it could be improved with greater redundancy, equipment to reduce pathogens such as UV. for years I have been educating hobbyist that the small aquarium environment keeps the fish in close proximity to parasites during an out break and that in the ocean the animal is not usually completely overrun by the sheer numbers that can exists in the aquarium. right? we all know this can happen. But I am seeing that equipment can bring balance to the force. So I am really looking in that direction presently.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I think coral may be better at controlling parasites than any equipment. We know corals eat copepods, rotifers, and other plankton that is the same size as the free swimming ich and velvet. They also swim much more effectively. I'm thinking our coral can be the first line of defense to help keep an outbreak from happening.
There was a video by a doctoral cadidate somewhere here on R2R that led me to the same conclusion. Wish I had saved the link.Talked about the water ejected from an atoll that was stripped of bacteria and viruses as well as other plankton. Water was flowing through a coral and clam garden!
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I'm fascinated that some dolphin rub against gorgonians because they secret an antimicrobial that can help prevent bacterial infections and possibly kill parasites.
So many awesome natural responses.
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