Vinegar dosing solely as a means of bacteria production

[davidwillis]

the two options are to monitor the pH after dissolution, or to saturate the vinegar with solid calcium hydroxide (that’s what I did for manual vinegar dosing with no pH drop).

ok, so reading some more, on this... http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

In there, it says:
"pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid"

That would be a lot of Kalkwasser for a gallon of vinegar.... since there is 3785ml in a gallon, that would be 3785/15/2 = 126 teaspoons per gallon of vinegar.... is that correct. Will that much kalkwasser dissolve in a gallon of Vinegar?

I was also reading this: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

In that article talking about keeping a balanced PH:
"This balance is roughly matched by using three level teaspoons of solid lime per gallon of limewater, and 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of limewater"
At that ratio, three teaspoons per 45ml, that is 3785/45*3 = 252 teaspoons per gallon of vinegar... Obviously this solution is diluted with water, but would that much kalkwasser dissolve in a gallon of vinegar, or does it need the water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you explain more about the "saturate the vinegar with solid calcium hydroxide". By solid, do you mean like a block of it rather than the powder? Do they sell blocks of calcium hydroxide? Would you just put a block of it in the vinegar, and let it sit for a day or so to become saturated?

Sorry if I am way off, I am new to dosing, and basically all of this. I have had fish only tanks, and even some soft corals, but I have never dosed anything, or done anything very complicated. I plan on setting up a 180 gallon reef tank next year (the largest tank I have had is a 55 gallon), so I am just trying to learn all I can before I start.

by solid I mean powder. Just keep adding it until excess remains and let that settle to the bottom.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ok, so reading some more, on this... http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

In there, it says:
"pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid"

That would be a lot of Kalkwasser for a gallon of vinegar.... since there is 3785ml in a gallon, that would be 3785/15/2 = 126 teaspoons per gallon of vinegar.... is that correct. Will that much kalkwasser dissolve in a gallon of Vinegar?

I was also reading this: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

In that article talking about keeping a balanced PH:
"This balance is roughly matched by using three level teaspoons of solid lime per gallon of limewater, and 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of limewater"
At that ratio, three teaspoons per 45ml, that is 3785/45*3 = 252 teaspoons per gallon of vinegar... Obviously this solution is diluted with water, but would that much kalkwasser dissolve in a gallon of vinegar, or does it need the water?

that 45 mL per gallon with 3 teaspoons calcium hydroxide is the standard suggested by Craig Bingman many years ago. It is still high in pH.

i have calculated the amount that dissolved in pure vinegar. That is not intended as an alk supplement. Way too much organic for a typical tank.

 

[Maltese]

All forms of carbon dosing is truly meant to reduce nutrients by increasing bacteria populations.

The end goal is what we are after.

What's your current N03 level and if I may ask, why are you trying to lower it?

Do all forms of carbon feed heterotrophic bacteria?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do all forms of carbon feed heterotrophic bacteria?

No, but a great many organic compounds do. Some are not metabolizable, like many components of motor oil.

 

[Maltese]

No, but a great many organic compounds do. Some are not metabolizable, like many components of motor oil.

Can you mention some organic compounds?

No, but a great many organic compounds do. Some are not metabolizable, like many components of motor oil.

Can you mention some of these organic compounds to feed heterotrophic bacteria?

 

[davidwillis]

that 45 mL per gallon with 3 teaspoons calcium hydroxide is the standard suggested by Craig Bingman many years ago. It is still high in pH.

i have calculated the amount that dissolved in pure vinegar. That is not intended as an alk supplement. Way too much organic for a typical tank.

Thanks.. Yes, It would be way too much. I am just in the learning stage now. If I were do dose a saturated solution of pure vinegar with calcium hydroxide, it would be to dose carbon without lowering the PH, and there would have to be a secondary way to dose extra alk. I would think the amount of calcium hydroxide needed would change depending on the corals in the tank, where to organic carbon may not need to increase with it. So I don't know if one single dose could work, unless you constantly adjusted the ratio, but then you would probably end up with a mixture that bacteria would grow in.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you mention some organic compounds?

Can you mention some of these organic compounds to feed heterotrophic bacteria?

there are literally a neat infinite number of suitable organic compounds. Ethanol, as in vodka, and most other alcohols, acetate as normal vinegar, formate, glucose, sucrose, fatty acids like decanoate, all natural amino acids, lipids (fats).

I recommend simple, like vinegar or vodka.

 

[Maltese]

there are literally a neat infinite number of suitable organic compounds. Ethanol, as in vodka, and most other alcohols, acetate as normal vinegar, formate, glucose, sucrose, fatty acids like decanoate, all natural amino acids, lipids (fats).

I recommend simple, like vinegar or vodka.

Thank you,
Mr Randy Holmes-Farley that was really useful for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your welcome.

Happy Reefing

 

[randoma]

Your welcome.

Happy Reefing

Randy, a little off-topic - will un-diluted store-bought vinegar host bacteria after it has been opened? If so, what can you do to mitigate it? You've mentioned previously that diluted vinegar will host bacteria, thereby losing the carbon content, but I'm not sure if that applies to 5% 'full' strength vinegar. Will making 'no-pox' (2/3rd vinegar, 1/3rd vodka) help with the storage issue?

I want to dose out of a container with a peristaltic pump, which means that the container can't be airtight...

--Cs

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Store vinegar at 5% acidity standard in USA will not grow bacteria in it. That’s exactly what I dosed when I got a dosing pump. I drew it straight from the 1 gallon plastic jug, with a slot cut in the lid for the tubing to enter. Make sure the jug is below the end of the tubing to be certain you could never siphon out the whole gallon.

 

[MickeyCT]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I recently started dosing vinegar in with my Kalk. After seeing this thread I'm wondering if it would be better for me to dose vinegar separate from the Kalk but still add enough Kalk powder to offset the lower pH.

My tank is 225 and I have been using Kalk for years to maintain Alk and Calcium, currently adding 5 liters of saturated Kalk daily. I just recently started dosing vinegar to increase bacteria and help lower Nitrates. I started dosing it manually once a day and got to 15ml per 100 gal without any issues or visible bacterial blooms so I felt safe adding enough to my Kalkwasser in an equivalent amount planning to increase it gradually.

From my reading of your forum and various articles I thought this was the way you did it as well. Would I really be better to dose the vinegar separately on its own?

Mickey

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is likely fine to have it in your kalkwasser, but the advantage to separate dosing is you can dose the vinegar during the day when pH and O2 are highest, since it lowers both when consumed.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I have been dosing vinegar for a long time now and I wish I could take my rocks apart just to show the amount of sponge and filter feeders that are underneath. I dose for nutrients but the added benifit of more sponge growth is another huge plus for me.
I have seen so many people say not to dose a carbon source because they starved their corals or lowered nutrients too quickly. That’s not a reason to stay away from a carbon source. You can dose a smaller amount that won’t affect nutrients and still get the added filter feeder growth too. I feel like there are so many tanks that could benifit from this but most people are scared. Just use a small amount and come back in a year to show us the good things that came from it.
I have been dosing by hand in a 100 gallon tank for the past two years. Before that vodka and vinegar on a doser. I haven’t noticed any difference. I am dosing maybe 8 oz of vinegar each day I am not sure because I just eye the amount in a glass. I dump it in in three or four pours throughout a few hours. It probably affects ph some temporarily but my corals don’t care.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the info on your system. I too saw a good amount of sponge growth and it’s one of the main reasons I dosed vinegar.

 

[MickeyCT]

It is likely fine to have it in your kalkwasser, but the advantage to separate dosing is you can dose the vinegar during the day when pH and O2 are highest, since it lowers both when consumed.

Right now I'm dosing the Kalk from 3:00AM to 6:00PM to help offset the pH drop at night and dosing stops as pH climbs. MH Lights are on from 3:00PM to 7:30PM. As I up the dose of vinegar I'll think about splitting things up to dose separately.

Thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds good.

Happy Reefing.