Watanabei Angelfish Swimming Upside Down

Kann · Aug 30, 2021

Hello. I just noticed my female Watanabei Angelfish this morning swimming upside down. She was fine on Saturday, but we were gone yesterday so I'm not exactly sure when this started. She ate well on Friday (Frozen LRS Reef Frenzy and flake). All other fish in the tank are doing well.

210 gallon reef
Nitrate: 12 PPM
Nitrite: 0 PPM
Ammonia: 0 PPM
Alkalinity: 9.4 DKH

I've had her for a couple years now and she (and the male) have always ate well and been very healthy.

I now have her in a 10 gallon quarantine tank and have included pictures of the side and bottom. She does not appear bloated or swollen. There is also a video taken prior to me pulling her out of the main display tank.

I've given the first dose of ParaGuard. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also posted this on HumbleFish, but was hoping to reach out to more of you as well.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 30, 2021

It actually looks bloated to me. The picture with part of its belly out of the water - was the fish resting like that? If so, there is a gas build-up in this fish's coelomic cavity. Two places where this happens is in the air bladder and in the intestines. Genicanthus angelfish are prone to both issues. I also see some dislodged scales on the body - any idea how that happened, perhaps while struggling to swim upright?

An overinflated air bladder is sometimes caused by an infection - common in new Genicanthus. They are caught in deeper water, and divers "needle" them to de-gas the bladder while bringing them up. Trouble is, the needles aren't sterile and the air bladder gets infected. Some bacteria produce gas, which then overinflates the air bladder. You've obviously had the fish too long for that to be the issues.

Gas can build up in the intestines and/or stomach. If there is a blockage, bacteria can work on the organic material in the gut, again producing gas.

Given how the belly seems thickest at the vent, I think this is something to do with a blockage in the gastro-intestinal tract, allowing for gas to build up. The blockage could be a bolus of undigested food, a bit of indigestible tank decoration, or even a tumor.

So - what to do? I've never had much success with a permanent cure for this. I've used a needle/syringe and drawn off the excess gas, but the same risk of infection is there, and typically the gas builds back up and the fish floats again in a day or two.

People may tell you "feed it peas" - that is a cure for goldfish, not Genicanthus angels, and this fish isn't going to feed on them like this anyway.

You may also hear "soak it in Epsom salts". That is also an old school freshwater tonic, and Epson salts is the fourth most common salt in our mixes, so adding a little bit more is pointless. All it does is raise the salinity a bit.

Sorry - but the prognosis for this fish is really poor.

Jay

Jay

Cwentz758 · Aug 30, 2021

Not to hijack a thread but I have kind of a similar issue with a Swallowtail angel. She’s got this bloated belly all of a sudden about a week ago. I don’t notice her eating the mysis shrimp. She actively swims but not as much as she used to. She’s been in the tank about a month and a half along with a male swallow tail who has no current issue.

GHOSTLY · Aug 30, 2021

usually when a fish swims upside down its a bladder issue. My betta had a swim bladder problem but it was resolved via saltwater dips and treatments. When I go fishing I notice that some of the fish will swim upside down after receiving a sudden blow to the head though

socalfishy · Aug 30, 2021

I had a passer angel come down with this while in QT after a fish store purchase maybe 2 weeks into QT. I noticed it was very bloated and came to the conclusion it had some internal parasites that caused inflammation and bloating. I dose the water in its QT with metroplex and after a few days it came back down but it was not swimming normal, it was like a perch fish always more head up. The fish never ate again " i should have force fed it" but it attempted to swim and constantly ran itself against the wall and it was downhill from there. Do you notice your fish "pooping"? if its white and stringy its internal bugs.

Tbg299 · Aug 30, 2021

Kann said:
Hello. I just noticed my female Watanabei Angelfish this morning swimming upside down. She was fine on Saturday, but we were gone yesterday so I'm not exactly sure when this started. She ate well on Friday (Frozen LRS Reef Frenzy and flake). All other fish in the tank are doing well.

210 gallon reef
Nitrate: 12 PPM
Nitrite: 0 PPM
Ammonia: 0 PPM
Alkalinity: 9.4 DKH

I've had her for a couple years now and she (and the male) have always ate well and been very healthy.

I now have her in a 10 gallon quarantine tank and have included pictures of the side and bottom. She does not appear bloated or swollen. There is also a video taken prior to me pulling her out of the main display tank.

I've given the first dose of ParaGuard. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also posted this on HumbleFish, but was hoping to reach out to more of you as well.

It's definitely swim bladder disease. Or something nuerological.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 30, 2021

Tbg299 said:
It's definitely swim bladder disease. Or something nuerological.

It is more likely gas in the digestive system due to a blockage. Swim bladders are located more dorsally, so when they over inflate, it tends to make the fish float upright.
Jay

Tbg299 · Aug 30, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
It is more likely gas in the digestive system due to a blockage. Swim bladders are located more dorsally, so when they over inflate, it tends to make the fish float upright.
Jay

Thats possible. I have more experience with freshwater fish than marine. However, I have kept many cichlids that have displayed this same symptom and it looks like it could definitely be a swim bladder problem.

vetteguy53081 · Aug 30, 2021

As Jay stated, it is gas which is causing bouyancy issues as shown in pics. Recovery is 50/50

Cwentz758 · Aug 30, 2021

@Jay Hemdal

any idea what could be my swallowtails issue?

Sleepingtiger · Aug 31, 2021

I know with freshwater and tropheus, bloat is quite common caused by protozoan. Could metronidazole be a cure for this?

I know with freshwater fish like frontosa where they ingest air and they keep floating up, a needle is used to remove the build up of air in their stomach and super glue applied after to prevent infection.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 31, 2021

Cwentz758 said:
Not to hijack a thread but I have kind of a similar issue with a Swallowtail angel. She’s got this bloated belly all of a sudden about a week ago. I don’t notice her eating the mysis shrimp. She actively swims but not as much as she used to. She’s been in the tank about a month and a half along with a male swallow tail who has no current issue.

Can you start a new post and tag me? I have a really difficult time trying to sort out two issues in the same post.
Here is a link to some background information that is helpful for us to know:

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks,

Jay

Kann · Aug 31, 2021

Jay - thanks for the info. I recently added more freeze dried food to the diet of the entire tank. I'm still feeding the same diet of frozen, pellet, and flake, but added freeze dried on top. Do you think the change in diet could have been the cause?

I'm not sure how the dislodged scales happened. I assume you are correct in that she had been struggling to stay upright and was rubbing on the sides of the tank.

As of this morning, she is hanging in there, but not looking good. Thanks for the help and wish me luck.

Kendall

Jay Hemdal said:
It actually looks bloated to me. The picture with part of its belly out of the water - was the fish resting like that? If so, there is a gas build-up in this fish's coelomic cavity. Two places where this happens is in the air bladder and in the intestines. Genicanthus angelfish are prone to both issues. I also see some dislodged scales on the body - any idea how that happened, perhaps while struggling to swim upright?

An overinflated air bladder is sometimes caused by an infection - common in new Genicanthus. They are caught in deeper water, and divers "needle" them to de-gas the bladder while bringing them up. Trouble is, the needles aren't sterile and the air bladder gets infected. Some bacteria produce gas, which then overinflates the air bladder. You've obviously had the fish too long for that to be the issues.

Gas can build up in the intestines and/or stomach. If there is a blockage, bacteria can work on the organic material in the gut, again producing gas.

Given how the belly seems thickest at the vent, I think this is something to do with a blockage in the gastro-intestinal tract, allowing for gas to build up. The blockage could be a bolus of undigested food, a bit of indigestible tank decoration, or even a tumor.

So - what to do? I've never had much success with a permanent cure for this. I've used a needle/syringe and drawn off the excess gas, but the same risk of infection is there, and typically the gas builds back up and the fish floats again in a day or two.

People may tell you "feed it peas" - that is a cure for goldfish, not Genicanthus angels, and this fish isn't going to feed on them like this anyway.

You may also hear "soak it in Epsom salts". That is also an old school freshwater tonic, and Epson salts is the fourth most common salt in our mixes, so adding a little bit more is pointless. All it does is raise the salinity a bit.

Sorry - but the prognosis for this fish is really poor.

Jay

Jay

Kann · Aug 31, 2021

Thanks to everyone for your input. She is still alive this morning, but not doing so great. I'll keep you posted. Wish me luck.

Thanks.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 31, 2021

Kann said:
Jay - thanks for the info. I recently added more freeze dried food to the diet of the entire tank. I'm still feeding the same diet of frozen, pellet, and flake, but added freeze dried on top. Do you think the change in diet could have been the cause?

I'm not sure how the dislodged scales happened. I assume you are correct in that she had been struggling to stay upright and was rubbing on the sides of the tank.

As of this morning, she is hanging in there, but not looking good. Thanks for the help and wish me luck.

Kendall

I've had Genicanthus angels develop gas/bloating from feeding too much dry food, or when they developed the bad habit of feeding from the surface, and ingesting air at the same time. Generally though, the gas passes through the fish (yes, they will pass gas, it's pretty funny to see). If you fed freeze dried food that didn't have time to rehydrate, that *could* be an issue - like if you take Metamucil and don't add enough water to it....just spit balling here though.

Jay