We finally tested the Black Box LED... Compare notes? | BRStv Investigates

Amoo

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I agree 100%. It really seems like the goal is simply to use LEDs at all costs and it doesn't matter if we do it poorer than existing and much less expensive technology. While there have been major feature gains we have taken significant setbacks in the quality and distribution of light. In many cases, we are paying 2-3x the cost for worse performance. In other cases the distribution of light has become so poor it's hard to imagine why they are legitimate options. This path just seems rather silly.

The evolution had to include a phase where the goal was simply to find some level of success but I think we are beyond that now and the goal has to be to exceed the existing technology on all fronts. Meaning healthier corals, more attractive tanks, and valuable feature sets. Without the ridiculous costs associated with modules spaced 6" apart and tuned down to 20%.

Opinions may vary but my thoughts are the halide/T5 hybrid is the goal to beat. Spectrum was not an issue, light intensity was not an issue, light distribution and shadows were not issues and visually the tank looked awesome with solid color pop and sense of movement from the halides which was somewhat muted by the T5's. IMO awesome on all fronts except it is power hungry, added a ton of heat to the tank, required bulb changes, often physically large, often ugly or require hoods and most installs lacked many cool features.

I think when you look at a diffused panel of LED's you can see an opportunity here to blend the ideal spectrum, adjust to your tanks par needs, it's diffused properly with limited shadows, there is a muted shimmer, no issues with color representation or pop, lower energy, lower heat, low profile, no bulb changes and potentially has all the cool programming features and phone apps LEDs are known for. This is where LEDS are not just meeting older technologies it is exceeding them.

I have talked to a half dozen LED manufactures and they do understand and see the same thing. The main issue is the market is accustomed the module form factor and there is legitimate fear reefers won't adopt or buy a larger form factor. I think they have good reason to believe that because LED fixtures and larger panels like the Orphek have done poorly in the US. So a single manufacturer has to be first to take the financial risk and the rest will follow. Then the BB versions :)

Until then I think we already have something really close to the solution with T5 LED hybrids. Options are super thin for the same reasons. The manufacturers don't want to invest in a technology everyone assumes will be irrelevant fairly soon. The new aquaticlife hybrid approach is probably going to be a major hit because a lot of us already own our LED modules and it will allow us to add the T5's in for a reasonable expense. I think the 4 foot version is going to be $350. https://reefbuilders.com/2017/08/21/aquaticlife-t5ho-hybrid-fixture-is-byo-led/

I hate to say this @Ryanbrs but the fixture you are looking for almost exists, unfortunately for you, you don't get an employee discount so you either can't talk about it if you do own one (because of who you represent) or are unwilling to give it a chance. I can't say for sure which and I'm not necessarily accusing you of anything here.

Seriously, grab a Photon V2 stick it over a 48" tank, grab two of their 48" lumen bars, angle them appropriately (the future of supplemental lighting imo) and you just killed almost all shadowing you get with a panel like this.

Are you diffused? No, but maybe you can try diffusing from the perspective of how you cover the tank rather then individual for each light source.

I know you can't get into a lot of it because of who you work for and you're basically the public voice for BRS, but I also don't think it's fair to the company who has been doing it and doing ti well the entire time to say the fixture doesn't exist.
 

bif24701

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I see a lot of opinions stating LEDs are more exspensive, less effective, and create a less than desirable appearance. That of course is ludicrous, I don't know how you can so easily over look the overwhelming number of exquisite reefs aquariums lite under LEDs alone.
 

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I hate to say this @Ryanbrs but the fixture you are looking for almost exists, unfortunately for you, you don't get an employee discount so you either can't talk about it if you do own one (because of who you represent) or are unwilling to give it a chance. I can't say for sure which and I'm not necessarily accusing you of anything here.

Seriously, grab a Photon V2 stick it over a 48" tank, grab two of their 48" lumen bars, angle them appropriately (the future of supplemental lighting imo) and you just killed almost all shadowing you get with a panel like this.

Are you diffused? No, but maybe you can try diffusing from the perspective of how you cover the tank rather then individual for each light source.

I know you can't get into a lot of it because of who you work for and you're basically the public voice for BRS, but I also don't think it's fair to the company who has been doing it and doing ti well the entire time to say the fixture doesn't exist.

You know he co-owns BRS right?
 

Amoo

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You know he co-owns BRS right?

I do but I also realize he doesn't get to call all the shots AND they have certain relationships they have established with other companies that we can't even pretend to know all of the details about. All of these things could be reasons as to why they flat out can't carry something like the Photons. Maybe Reefbreeders wants all the traffic on their site, maybe others have threatened to pull out. There's a reason he said he was asked to not even shine a light on them at all. I'm sure many would be seriously mad if he shined a real positive light on one of the better ones.
 

bif24701

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Of course they've taken over. They're new and promised reefers a whole slew of things. Whether they delivered on those promises is an entirely different topic and very personal.

I tried a slew of them for years and never saw the results I expected. That was just my experience. I still don't think LEDs have caught MH/T5 for being the gold standard

The MH/T5 have but one huge advantage, it's difficult if not impossible to screw up. I've stated over and over that LEDs are best suited to those with experience. T5s I would strongly recommend to any new comer. Kessil makes tuning Lights far better than any other but there is still potential to scorch corals.
 

enveetie

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I do but I also realize he doesn't get to call all the shots AND they have certain relationships they have established with other companies that we can't even pretend to know all of the details about. All of these things could be reasons as to why they flat out can't carry something like the Photons. Maybe Reefbreeders wants all the traffic on their site, maybe others have threatened to pull out. There's a reason he said he was asked to not even shine a light on them at all. I'm sure many would be seriously mad if he shined a real positive light on one of the better ones.

There's really nothing wrong or odd about this. There is nothing wrong about censoring personal opinions to preserve business relationships. I think we're all very well aware that BRS is a for-profit business. Their videos have been a service for sure. For usefulness as a learning tool for the casual reefer, I haven't seen anything like it in over 20+ years of reefing and second only to the arrival of reefing message boards on the internet.
 

Bouncingsoul39

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I appreciate BRS talking to time to create this video especially considering it's a product they don't sell. With that said, I think they went overboard on the whole UL listing and fire hazard thing. And the name dropping of Mr. Carroll is kind of silly. Not to knock SCMAS, but I think they had a total of 25 people at the last meeting tops, so not sure what weight his experience carries. It's a small club and he's just some dude who had a random bad experience. Really didn't need to be mentioned.

Seemed like you guys went out of your way to drive that point home about the fire hazard, so I guess that was the financially justification for the production of the video? Scaring enough people away with the hopes they'll buy something else?
 

Tristren

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...
The evolution had to include a phase where the goal was simply to find some level of success but I think we are beyond that now and the goal has to be to exceed the existing technology on all fronts. Meaning healthier corals, more attractive tanks, and valuable feature sets. Without the ridiculous costs associated with modules spaced 6" apart and tuned down to 20%.

...

I think when you look at a diffused panel of LED's you can see an opportunity here to blend the ideal spectrum, adjust to your tanks par needs, it's diffused properly with limited shadows, there is a muted shimmer, no issues with color representation or pop, lower energy, lower heat, low profile, no bulb changes and potentially has all the cool programming features and phone apps LEDs are known for. This is where LEDS are not just meeting older technologies it is exceeding them.

I have talked to a half dozen LED manufactures and they do understand and see the same thing. The main issue is the market is accustomed the module form factor and there is legitimate fear reefers won't adopt or buy a larger form factor. I think they have good reason to believe that because LED fixtures and larger panels like the Orphek have done poorly in the US. So a single manufacturer has to be first to take the financial risk and the rest will follow. Then the BB versions :)

It really seems like that is the natural next step. And you are perhaps uniquely positioned to actually move that forward.
I'm looking forward to MACNA next year.

What's your view of the Maxspect Recurve as a step in that direction?

I would guess that the next phase (and how the advanced manufacturers will set themselves apart from cheaper options should and older tech) will be in controllability. Meaning the ability to adjust lighting dynamically a cross the tank and throughout the day and night. We may end up with panels like the OLED monitors someone mentioned, or like the array at the concert I noticed last week. The technology certainly exists to have spectrum and intensity shift across an led panel. This could be used to adjust lighting in different areas of a mixed reef, to simulate the movement of the sun and moon.

Eventually it may shift in some other cyclical way, synched with current and temperature presumably, to stimulate coral or fish spawning.

Interesting stuff and the possibilities are legion.
 

Ryanbrs

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I do but I also realize he doesn't get to call all the shots AND they have certain relationships they have established with other companies that we can't even pretend to know all of the details about. All of these things could be reasons as to why they flat out can't carry something like the Photons. Maybe Reefbreeders wants all the traffic on their site, maybe others have threatened to pull out. There's a reason he said he was asked to not even shine a light on them at all. I'm sure many would be seriously mad if he shined a real positive light on one of the better ones.

I can tell you there is nothing nefarious going on here : ) We have a new product team of 5 people which decide which products we bring in and offload. This includes our marketing director (Valerie), a community engagement seat (Randy/Reefer), a product merchandiser (Zack/Reefer), head of wholesale (Nick/Reefer), and catalog manager (Charlie/Reefer). They have a 90-minute meeting every week to discuss new opportunities, approved ones are given to Zack to test. If he feels they provide solid value at any particular price point he suggests we bring it in and the team reviews his results. There are zero agreements or even understandings with anyone preventing us from bringing in or promoting any new lighting options. The primary mandate is just they think reefers are going to be successful using it and it represents value at the particular price point. I do directly recommend some items to that team which as a 50% owner obviously carries some weight. The Aquaticlife T5 retro LED hybrid is a good example of one I personally pushed to the top after I saw it at Macna.

As concerns to reef breeders, I don't think the Photon v2 has ever been tested by the team but I am not sure. Doesn't look like they are available on any major online entity so I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional on their part. If that's not the case I would certainly welcome them to send a sample for the team to review. As to the photon V2 I have personally never used or tested one so I have no valuable input. I will say this doesn't really match the diffused panel I was discussing as the goal. If I was willing to give up the diffused element I think the Orphek v4 is a bit closer to what I was mentioning.

I can tell you that we very intentionally have a very limited offering of products and it is based on what the reefers here are willing to use personally and believe presents an economic value. For instance, we offer a handful of skimmer lines where most our competitors offer 30+ and expect reefers to figure out the value on their own. Each approach will be better for different folks but this has been our way from the beginning. Hopefully, the insight into the behind the scenes workings of how we select products is helpful or at least somewhat interesting : )
 
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DSC reef

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I appreciate BRS talking to time to create this video especially considering it's a product they don't sell. With that said, I think they went overboard on the whole UL listing and fire hazard thing. And the name dropping of Mr. Carroll is kind of silly. Not to knock SCMAS, but I think they had a total of 25 people at the last meeting tops, so not sure what weight his experience carries. It's a small club and he's just some dude who had a random bad experience. Really didn't need to be mentioned.

Seemed like you guys went out of your way to drive that point home about the fire hazard, so I guess that was the financially justification for the production of the video? Scaring enough people away with the hopes they'll buy something else?
Not to knock SCMAS or Mr. Carroll, lol. Wow man. Yeah, ryan at BRS whole mission was to scare you into radions. Seriously!? How can you write you appreciate what brs did in the same sentence?
 

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I can tell you there is nothing nefarious going on here : ) We have a new product team of 5 people which decide which products we bring in and offload. This includes our marketing director (Valerie), a community engagement seat (Randy/Reefer), a product merchandiser (Zack/Reefer), head of wholesale (Nick/Reefer), and catalog manager (Charlie/Reefer). They have a 90-minute meeting every week to discuss new opportunities, approved ones are given to Zack to test. If he feels they provide solid value at any particular price point he suggests we bring it in and the team reviews his results. There are zero agreements or even understandings with anyone preventing us from bringing in or promoting any new lighting options. The primary mandate is just they think reefers are going to be successful using it and it represents value at the particular price point. I do directly recommend some items to that team which as a 50% owner obviously carries some weight. The Aquaticlife T5 retro LED hybrid is a good example of one I personally pushed to the top after I saw it at Macna.

As concerns to reef breeders, I don't think the Photon v2 has ever been tested by the team but I am not sure. Doesn't look like they are available on any major online entity so I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional on their part. If that's not the case I would certainly welcome to send a sample for the team to review. As to the photon V2 I have personally never used or tested one so I have no valuable input. I will say this doesn't really match the diffused panel I was discussing as the goal. If I was willing to give up the diffused element I think the Orphek v4 is a bit closer to what I was mentioning.

I can tell you that we very intentionally have a very limited offering of products and it is based on what the reefers here are willing to use personally and believe presents an economic value. For instance, we offer a handful of skimmer lines where most our competitors offer 30+ and expect reefers to figure out the value on their own. Each approach will be better for different folks but this has been our way from the beginning. Hopefully, the insight into the behind the scenes workings of how we select products is helpful or at least somewhat interesting : )

I think the main question that this raises is how to get marketing director (Valerie) to become marketing director (Valerie/Reefer).
 

Ryanbrs

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I think the main question that this raises is how to get marketing director (Valerie) to become marketing director (Valerie/Reefer).

LOL well she has had a tank on her desk for a few years. Currently a 20 nuvo but not 10-year vet like the rest of them : ) Shes going to kill me for showing this but this was her tank we treated for red slime ...

 

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Not to knock SCMAS or Mr. Carroll, lol. Wow man. Yeah, ryan at BRS whole mission was to scare you into radions. Seriously!? How can you write you appreciate what brs did in the same sentence?
Just because I'm critical of the safety angle in the video doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of the data they provided. All the rest of the stuff, I could do without. As I said, I think they went overboard on the fire hazard stuff.
Also, yes I'm serious about scaring people away from BB. When a trusted source says the words FIRE fours times and mentions "not UL listed" four times that stuff sticks in peoples mind and will scare them. Don't you understand basic psychology? RyanBRS does.
 
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Ryanbrs

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I appreciate BRS talking to time to create this video especially considering it's a product they don't sell. With that said, I think they went overboard on the whole UL listing and fire hazard thing. And the name dropping of Mr. Carroll is kind of silly. Not to knock SCMAS, but I think they had a total of 25 people at the last meeting tops, so not sure what weight his experience carries. It's a small club and he's just some dude who had a random bad experience. Really didn't need to be mentioned.

Seemed like you guys went out of your way to drive that point home about the fire hazard, so I guess that was the financially justification for the production of the video? Scaring enough people away with the hopes they'll buy something else?

I appreciate the kind words and understand the difficulty with this particular topic. That said, Greg is a passionate reefer and upstanding member of the community who deserves our respect. Sharing the experiences of a real person that has accountability within the community and no clear agenda is valuable.

I understand the vantage point of how many reefers think the safety concerns are overplayed. From my vantage point, the goal is some type of middle ground. Not blowing the concerns out of proportion is absolutely important but Ignoring the safety concerns of direct import goods only sold on marketplace websites is not responsible and demonstrates a lack of concern for the end users safety.

I don't know if I hit it perfectly but It would be irresponsible for me to not share an instance I am well aware of, knowledge of what is the most likely cause of issues like this as well as some methods of identifying lower risk options like UL. I know many reefers don't agree but if I had it to do over again I would share the same information because I think it is important to make informed decisions and I do think it is wise to lean to the side of caution.

As to the financial justification. I can only hope that over time it just becomes more and more apparent the primary goal here is always to help reefers be successful with their tanks. Sharing legit data on the gear we all use and methods behind them is the best way to do that. How much we sell of any one product will never be worth risking reefers trust. I will never say something I do not believe to be true in one of these videos. I will be wrong from time to time and my thoughts change as I learn more but the end goal is always successful reef tanks. I do obviously hope somewhere in there someone buys something so I can keep my dream job : )
 

Flippers4pups

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I appreciate the kind words and understand the difficulty with this particular topic. That said, Greg is a passionate reefer and upstanding member of the community who deserves our respect. Sharing the experiences of a real person that has accountability within the community and no clear agenda is valuable.

I understand the vantage point of how many reefers think the safety concerns are overplayed. From my vantage point, the goal is some type of middle ground. Not blowing the concerns out of proportion is absolutely important but Ignoring the safety concerns of direct import goods only sold on marketplace websites is not responsible and demonstrates a lack of concern for the end users safety.

I don't know if I hit it perfectly but It would be irresponsible for me to not share an instance I am well aware of, knowledge of what is the most likely cause of issues like this as well as some methods of identifying lower risk options like UL. I know many reefers don't agree but if I had it to do over again I would share the same information because I think it is important to make informed decisions and I do think it is wise to lean to the side of caution.

As to the financial justification. I can only hope that over time it just becomes more and more apparent the primary goal here is always to help reefers be successful with their tanks. Sharing legit data on the gear we all use and methods behind them is the best way to do that. How much we sell of any one product will never be worth risking reefers trust. I will never say something I do not believe to be true in one of these videos. I will be wrong from time to time and my thoughts change as I learn more but the end goal is always successful reef tanks. I do obviously hope somewhere in there someone buys something so I can keep my dream job : )

Gregs black box unit that caught on fire (Taotronics) isn't sold anymore and isn't the one you tested in your video. In fact it's quite different in design than the ones sold now and used for years and years now.

Should that have been made clear and said in your video, and in your comments now?

I truly don't mean to sound condescending by any means, but clearly there's a misrepresentation here. We are all adults and understand the sand it took to embark on this review knowing the pressures placed on you to do it, and not to do it.


Greg's box

97df5e17edfbe77d6b218f17f4f2820b.png




Example of current models sold

ec494bcf919725a5c74cea2f513b02ca.png
 
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redfishbluefish

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..........identifying lower risk options like UL.......

Can we please drop the UL thing....it's a paid certification, and I'd put more weight in a CE or ISO certification on any item over UL.

HERE's a UL item that was known to be a house burner, but still remained on the market for a number of years. Note that it was also sold under the GE name as well.

So now what does UL mean as far as lower risk?
 

Amoo

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I can tell you there is nothing nefarious going on here : ) We have a new product team of 5 people which decide which products we bring in and offload. This includes our marketing director (Valerie), a community engagement seat (Randy/Reefer), a product merchandiser (Zack/Reefer), head of wholesale (Nick/Reefer), and catalog manager (Charlie/Reefer). They have a 90-minute meeting every week to discuss new opportunities, approved ones are given to Zack to test. If he feels they provide solid value at any particular price point he suggests we bring it in and the team reviews his results. There are zero agreements or even understandings with anyone preventing us from bringing in or promoting any new lighting options. The primary mandate is just they think reefers are going to be successful using it and it represents value at the particular price point. I do directly recommend some items to that team which as a 50% owner obviously carries some weight. The Aquaticlife T5 retro LED hybrid is a good example of one I personally pushed to the top after I saw it at Macna.

As concerns to reef breeders, I don't think the Photon v2 has ever been tested by the team but I am not sure. Doesn't look like they are available on any major online entity so I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional on their part. If that's not the case I would certainly welcome them to send a sample for the team to review. As to the photon V2 I have personally never used or tested one so I have no valuable input. I will say this doesn't really match the diffused panel I was discussing as the goal. If I was willing to give up the diffused element I think the Orphek v4 is a bit closer to what I was mentioning.

I can tell you that we very intentionally have a very limited offering of products and it is based on what the reefers here are willing to use personally and believe presents an economic value. For instance, we offer a handful of skimmer lines where most our competitors offer 30+ and expect reefers to figure out the value on their own. Each approach will be better for different folks but this has been our way from the beginning. Hopefully, the insight into the behind the scenes workings of how we select products is helpful or at least somewhat interesting : )

@Reef Breeders Logan here's an open door for you.

@Ryanbrs I was hoping it didn't come across how it was taken. I'm not suggesting you guys are doing anything nefarious and I have chosen myself to personally order most all of my dry goods via you guys because of your business practices. My only point about bringing up RB is we all know the Orphek is a heck of a light, but it's top top top of the line and very $$$. Something like an option from RB would really be a sweet spot for a ton of reefers and open up a quality light for a lot more people straight through BRS.

I know what you're talking about in regards to diffusing our light sources, but RB and Orphek already have the layout, maybe we should be looking into diffusing our tank lids themselves.
 

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"Not blowing the concerns out of proportion is absolutely important but Ignoring the safety concerns of direct import goods only sold on marketplace websites is not responsible and demonstrates a lack of concern for the end users safety." @rynanbrs


So let me understand this. Import goods shipped directly to you (BRS) and placed on the BRS website to be then shipped to me? Got it.

How is that different than direct to me? Got it.

Will someone govern Amazon and EBay, for god's sake please! It's a safety matter here! Wow!
 

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This is the thread that just keeps on giving!

@Ryanbrs it doesn't matter what you say, how you say it or anything else. The black box users will defend their purchase to the end. It's basic human psychology. People take it personal when anyone sheds negative light (no pun intended) on an item they've purchased.

It reminds me so much of my other hobby and that forum: Golf. The arguments in that world are unreal to listen to.
 

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