We finally tested the Black Box LED... Compare notes? | BRStv Investigates

[redfishbluefish]

Unless I missed part of a conversation, I can't help but wonder about lighting bandwidth changes over time. Will a low quality 420nm LED drift from that bandwidth earlier than a higher quality one. And, if so, does it shift enough to make a difference to the coral?

Good question, but I'll be surprised if you get an answer. When I ran T-5's I repeatedly asked this question concerning data about spectral shift over time. I was told to change my bulbs every 9 - 12 months because of it......but even though it was repeatedly asked, no one could supply that data. However, like a good little sheep, I changed my bulbs every 9 - 12 months. This is one of the reasons I switched to LED's and would now like to know the answer to the question you raised about LED's as well.

 

[Empress]

It is my perception that most of the black boxes on ebay, amazon and similar sites are pretty darn similar. Once you get into more refined applications and companies you should expect some level of differences. That said, even though a lot of reefers would like to see it we are probably unable to test all of these lights. This 20-minute video had three people working on it all week long and cost in excess of $5,000 to produce. Something I was excited to do because the community and I personally wanted to know. I think we did a pretty fair job of sharing the data and giving them the same representation as the other lighting videos we have done. That said, we can't spend that kind of time and resources on every last one of these lights. I also don't think it would be fair or respectful to these manufacturers to potentially publicly share negative information about their products and businesses. I think the best avenue to see that type of thing is to ask the individual companies to produce this type of open and honest data on their products and share it with the community. Really their job to share and promote their own value to the reefing community.

In the end, I think it is fair to say we will always spend more time on the methods and related gear the team we would actually use because that's a positive productive message. Supportive of that we try hard to only offer gear we would personally use as well. There are some natural synergies in this approach : )

I love all the BRS videos and this one is definitely one of the most informative. I'm hoping someday you'll do one showing the different facts between just the black boxes.

Thanks for your hard work putting this video together. It's very appreciated. [emoji225]

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Good question, but I'll be surprised if you get an answer. When I ran T-5's I repeatedly asked this question concerning data about spectral shift over time. I was told to change my bulbs every 9 - 12 months because of it......but even though it was repeatedly asked, no one could supply that data. However, like a good little sheep, I changed my bulbs every 9 - 12 months. This is one of the reasons I switched to LED's and would now like to know the answer to the question you raised about LED's as well.

That would be a great topic for a future BRS Investigates!

 

[redfishbluefish]

That would be a great topic for a future BRS Investigates!

I'd expect this question would be right up the alley of Sanjay Joshi or Dana Riddle.....or BRS (they appear to have the equipment to do it...hint, hint, hint.) I believe Sanjay did something similar with metal halides a number of years ago. Time to update this data with T5's and LED's.

 

[wooglins]

I'd expect this question would be right up the alley of Sanjay Joshi or Dana Riddle.....or BRS (they appear to have the equipment to do it...hint, hint, hint.) I believe Sanjay did something similar with metal halides a number of years ago. Time to update this data with T5's and LED's.

I think the trick with LED's is the number of hours required to observer a significant shift. Instead of being measured in months it is measured in many years. They do shift as they way they generate different color ranges is in someway similar to other bulb technologies. My understanding is that cooling of the led element can be very important to increasing longevity.

Cree publishes data on useful hours in service in some of there data sheets. The 395nm elements which are only used as far as I know by a few companies only last a few years but are very inexpensive to replace ( few dollars).

http://www.ledbenchmark.com/faq/Color-Shift.html

 

[RamsReef]

@randyBRS @Ryanbrs Have opened up a new salt mine!

 

[Ryanbrs]

Good question, but I'll be surprised if you get an answer. When I ran T-5's I repeatedly asked this question concerning data about spectral shift over time. I was told to change my bulbs every 9 - 12 months because of it......but even though it was repeatedly asked, no one could supply that data. However, like a good little sheep, I changed my bulbs every 9 - 12 months. This is one of the reasons I switched to LED's and would now like to know the answer to the question you raised about LED's as well.

We currently have this test going on in the background. It's been about a month so far and we need run them 24 hours a day for around 4 months to simulate a years use. I think we may simulate 2 or even 3 years of use to get the entire picture. We are looking at both spectrum shift and par loss over time. We are also looking at the same elements on bulbs which have been dimmed from 0-100% and 0-50% each day.

I have a suspicion that we don't need to change the bulbs anywhere near as often as we have been told : )

 

[rtparty]

We currently have this test going on in the background. It's been about a month so far and we need run them 24 hours a day for around 4 months to simulate a years use. I think we may simulate 2 or even 3 years of use to get the entire picture. We are looking at both spectrum shift and par loss over time. We are also looking at the same elements on bulbs which have been dimmed from 0-100% and 0-50% each day.

I have a suspicion that we don't need to change the bulbs anywhere near as often as we have been told : )

Sounds like a great test. I do wonder how much turning them on and off degrades life as well.

To the second point...if T5s don't need to be replaced nearly as often, that's a major blow to the LED "savings" myth we've been fed for so long.

I personally ran most T5s 12-14 months and run any halide at least 18 months

 

[dz6t]

We currently have this test going on in the background. It's been about a month so far and we need run them 24 hours a day for around 4 months to simulate a years use. I think we may simulate 2 or even 3 years of use to get the entire picture. We are looking at both spectrum shift and par loss over time. We are also looking at the same elements on bulbs which have been dimmed from 0-100% and 0-50% each day.

I have a suspicion that we don't need to change the bulbs anywhere near as often as we have been told : )

Thank you!
Please put this video out as soon as possible.
One guy I met locally said that his LFS told him to change bulbs every three month.

 

[wooglins]

We currently have this test going on in the background. It's been about a month so far and we need run them 24 hours a day for around 4 months to simulate a years use. I think we may simulate 2 or even 3 years of use to get the entire picture. We are looking at both spectrum shift and par loss over time. We are also looking at the same elements on bulbs which have been dimmed from 0-100% and 0-50% each day.

I have a suspicion that we don't need to change the bulbs anywhere near as often as we have been told : )

Are you including an on and off cycle every 24 hours? I have read some good information related to electrical wear related to power up cycles.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Are you including an on and off cycle every 24 hours? I have read some good information related to electrical wear related to power up cycles.

three cycles of 7:45 on 0:15 off each day : )

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

We currently have this test going on in the background. It's been about a month so far and we need run them 24 hours a day for around 4 months to simulate a years use. I think we may simulate 2 or even 3 years of use to get the entire picture. We are looking at both spectrum shift and par loss over time. We are also looking at the same elements on bulbs which have been dimmed from 0-100% and 0-50% each day.

I have a suspicion that we don't need to change the bulbs anywhere near as often as we have been told : )

This sounds really interesting. Are you factoring bulb temperature into the test? I would suspect that running at an ideal temperature would maximize the lifespan of the lamps, but I wouldn't be surprised if running cooler or hotter would change how the spectrum and PAR shifts over time.

 

[Ryanbrs]

This sounds really interesting. Are you factoring bulb temperature into the test? I would suspect that running at an ideal temperature would maximize the lifespan of the lamps, but I wouldn't be surprised if running cooler or hotter would change how the spectrum and PAR shifts over time.

I am pretty sure we elected to use ati fixtures with the fans on for the ballasts but without the splash shield. In previous tests, this method performed close to the ideal fan speed. I didn't get to hung up on this element because the ideal temperature probably represents fewer reefer installs than anything else : )

 

[enveetie]

This is the thread that just keeps on giving!

@Ryanbrs it doesn't matter what you say, how you say it or anything else. The black box users will defend their purchase to the end. It's basic human psychology. People take it personal when anyone sheds negative light (no pun intended) on an item they've purchased.

It reminds me so much of my other hobby and that forum: Golf. The arguments in that world are unreal to listen to.

I use em and I don't defend them to the end.

 

[Big E]

I am pretty sure we elected to use ati fixtures with the fans on for the ballasts but without the splash shield. In previous tests, this method performed close to the ideal fan speed. I didn't get to hung up on this element because the ideal temperature probably represents fewer reefer installs than anything else : )

Data without the splash shield is pointless............no one runs an ATI fixture without it.

This comprises the performance of the bulbs with respect to spectrum and par over time.

ATI can recommend the best fan speed/cooling as they are the experts.

 

[James72]

I am pretty sure we elected to use ati fixtures with the fans on for the ballasts but without the splash shield. In previous tests, this method performed close to the ideal fan speed. I didn't get to hung up on this element because the ideal temperature probably represents fewer reefer installs than anything else : )

Isn't that against ATI manufacturer recommendation? How are the fans going to cool the tubes with the splash shield removed?

 

[rtparty]

Removing the splash shield will have no effect on how the bulbs spectrum shifts. If anything it will make them easier to cool and the fans can be on the lowest speed.

The test isn't about how bulbs change in an ATI fixture anyway. It's about how bulbs change and shift over time as a whole.

Also, ATI doesn't recommend the best fan speeds. Especially with the original Powermodule. It wasn't until hundreds of reefers had failing ballasts that ATI changed the fan speed recommendation

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Hey guys, I removed a few posts that involved political statements/rants (see our site terms and rules). If you have questions about this action, just shoot me a pm. Our goal is to keep this topic on topic and on point. Happy reefing!

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Awesome job, guys! I'm late to the party, but the info in the video was helpful and absolutely confirmed my experience. When I first got into the hobby, I bought some no-name black boxes off of ebay, and had dismal results. I then upgraded to radions (used that I got from a buddy who was swapping them out...so there are always ways of getting good equipment at a reduced cost for those who can't afford to buy the high end equipment outright), and after the upgrade, my reef made a noticeable jump in coral health (based on color and growth).

 

[Daniel@R2R]

We currently have this test going on in the background. It's been about a month so far and we need run them 24 hours a day for around 4 months to simulate a years use. I think we may simulate 2 or even 3 years of use to get the entire picture. We are looking at both spectrum shift and par loss over time. We are also looking at the same elements on bulbs which have been dimmed from 0-100% and 0-50% each day.

I have a suspicion that we don't need to change the bulbs anywhere near as often as we have been told : )

I'm looking forward to this video. I've had this question as well.