We finally tested the Black Box LED... Compare notes? | BRStv Investigates

[RyanCSGO]

Data without the splash shield is pointless............no one runs an ATI fixture without it.

This comprises the performance of the bulbs with respect to spectrum and par over time.

ATI can recommend the best fan speed/cooling as they are the experts.

there are multiple LFS and reefer in my area that run all their ATI fixture without the splash shields.
seems to be more common that people do not use them.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Isn't that against ATI manufacturer recommendation? How are the fans going to cool the tubes with the splash shield removed?

Data without the splash shield is pointless............no one runs an ATI fixture without it.

This comprises the performance of the bulbs with respect to spectrum and par over time.

ATI can recommend the best fan speed/cooling as they are the experts.

Pointless is a strong word but I understand the vantage point

Here is the thing, no matter what fan speed we run them at the actual operating temp will only be similar to 10% of all T5 users which are using various fixtures, sizes, brands, retro installs, fan speeds and installed in a wide variety of environments with different ambient temps. I would say less than 10% of T5 users are running them at the ideal temp and of that, at least half are doing it on accident. Only the most advanced users are testing the PAR at each fan speed to match their installs.

With the ATI we have tested the lights on all fan speeds and there are pretty significant differences between each speed. I have also found that there is no perfect setting because the ideal fan speed is different for each length and quality of bulbs as well as ambient air temp. In any case, I have found the "ideal" speed to vary based on fixture used and install configuration. For instance installed in a hood or even a warm fish room is very different than a hung in a cool basement.

We did find removing the shield and running the fans to cool the ballasts comes pretty darn close to best performance in a wide variety of environments. I get that almost no one does that with an ATI fixture because the 98% reflective material they use can rust fairly easy but this is typical to retro installs, fixtures without active cooling and a ton of different scenarios. I don't think there is a right answer to this that is reasonable to implement. So as we run these bulbs for the next year to potentially simulate three years of use I certainly think we are going to get a pretty decent window into how often we really need to change them.

Just as a fyi we are running temp experiments this week and will share the results in next weeks video : )

 

[oreo54]

.if T5s don't need to be replaced nearly as often, that's a major blow to the LED "savings" myth we've been fed for so long.

That really has been a myth.. up until now..
Doesn't have to do w/ decay but more to do w/ lumen (sorry only real measurement for the time being) efficiency.
T5/8 MH are about 100L/Watt input (ignore system watts for now)
Cheap LED diodes are more in the range of 50L/W
good diodes are 100-150L/W
great diodes are approaching 200L/W or more.
https://insights.regencylighting.com/lpw-targets-for-led-lamp-types

Once 200L/W is common LED's will sort of officially replace all other lighting for savings..
I'm sure there are about another 1/2 doz or so variables here though..

Strength of LED has always been more to the spectrum/output control than anything else really..
As to spectrum shifts of LED's over time, probably get more from dimming than phosphor decay..
Color shift of LEd's w/ PWM dimming:
Older article btw.
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/feb/led-color-shift-under-pwm-dimming

So now you have color shifts w/ dimming on top of color shifts over time..
Keep in mind that a 2nm shift may be visible to you but pointless to photosynthesis for the most part.

 

[Ryanbrs]

IMHO a lot of the discussion about going led over older tech has been about electrical efficiency, cost of ownership and features. So very little about nutritional quality of the light source and what provides the best life support to the corals

Most of that simply because the community didn't have the ability to quickly and easily evaluate a light source based on the nutritional qualities of the light source. That certainly seems to be changing and I see the beginning of a critical mass of reefers looking for and obtaining that knowledge. A lot of this data has been sitting out there in the universe, just underutilized. Dana Riddle's work, in particular, has covered most of this stuff years ago. For some reason, it just didn't get widely distributed or understood. His work represents tremendous value.

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

This is the thread that just keeps on giving!

@Ryanbrs it doesn't matter what you say, how you say it or anything else. The black box users will defend their purchase to the end. It's basic human psychology. People take it personal when anyone sheds negative light (no pun intended) on an item they've purchased.

It reminds me so much of my other hobby and that forum: Golf. The arguments in that world are unreal to listen to.

On the contrary, some of us BB users are interested in hearing both sides of the argument. I spent $400 on my entire aquarium setup-- including the lights-- so I don't have much of an investment in them, financially or personally. I'm really enjoying reading all the arguments from both sides because it's helping me decide whether I should save up for an $800 fixture or stick with what I've got.

Just wanted to point out that these arguments do serve a purpose besides giving an outlet for people to "defend their purchase to the end"

 

[oreo54]

I think it just needs to be more clear that not all black boxes are created equal.

Agreed....
Old style Reefbreeders programmable fixture.. not a "black box" at all..

 

[enveetie]

There is a gentleman on the other big forum that says he has been retrofitting the BB LEDs with diffusers. He just uses velcro to attach them. Says it works quite well

not sure if anyone pointed this out, the 120 degree lenses on the sbreeflights are diffused. theres a huge difference in light pattern when projected on my ceiling to test.

 

[reeferfoxx]

There is a gentleman on the other big forum that says he has been retrofitting the BB LEDs with diffusers. He just uses velcro to attach them. Says it works quite well

Unfortunately those photos were posted with photobucket. That info has seemed to have been lost.
The disco on a proper box supported with 120 deg lenses isn't terrible. At least compared to the Photon V2.

Someone else asked why BRS isnt selling the photon V2 and I think it has to do with the fact that its a rebranded light sold by many other brands much like the BBs. I also hate to say it but if BRS did a video on that light, the spectrum separation is huge and reefbreeders might take a hit.

 

[reeferfoxx]

When you spread diodes out far enough, the result isnt pleasant. However these lights are great when retro fitted with T5s.

 

[enveetie]

not sure if anyone pointed this out, the 120 degree lenses on the sbreeflights are diffused. theres a huge difference in light pattern when projected on my ceiling to test.

I forgot to mention whether there's an effective difference or not, I don't know. I purchased non-diffused 120 degree lenses to test.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Yep, my populargrow light came with "frosted" edges on the 120 deg lenses. Here is my modified box utilizing both 90 deg and 120 deg lenses with minimal hot spotting!

 

[dz6t]

That really has been a myth.. up until now..
Doesn't have to do w/ decay but more to do w/ lumen (sorry only real measurement for the time being) efficiency.
T5/8 MH are about 100L/Watt input (ignore system watts for now)
Cheap LED diodes are more in the range of 50L/W
good diodes are 100-150L/W
great diodes are approaching 200L/W or more.
https://insights.regencylighting.com/lpw-targets-for-led-lamp-types

Once 200L/W is common LED's will sort of officially replace all other lighting for savings..
I'm sure there are about another 1/2 doz or so variables here though..

Strength of LED has always been more to the spectrum/output control than anything else really..
As to spectrum shifts of LED's over time, probably get more from dimming than phosphor decay..
Color shift of LEd's w/ PWM dimming:
Older article btw.
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/feb/led-color-shift-under-pwm-dimming

So now you have color shifts w/ dimming on top of color shifts over time..
Keep in mind that a 2nm shift may be visible to you but pointless to photosynthesis for the most part.

Thank you very much for the information.
Look at the last graph, metal halide looks pretty good to me.

 

[dz6t]

Agreed....
Old style Reefbreeders programmable fixture.. not a "black box" at all..

Yes, there are heat sinks! I love heat sinks.

 

[dz6t]

In terms of splash guard on t5, I think the most important function of it is to, prevent splash which can damage the unprotected sockets.
I believe it is important to have a splash guard. Some fish are really like to splash water. I have a large blue tang that splash water when it see my walking by.
Retrofit t5 comes with protected sockets.

 

[Big E]

Pointless is a strong word but I understand the vantage point

Here is the thing, no matter what fan speed we run them at the actual operating temp will only be similar to 10% of all T5 users which are using various fixtures, sizes, brands, retro installs, fan speeds and installed in a wide variety of environments with different ambient temps. I would say less than 10% of T5 users are running them at the ideal temp and of that, at least half are doing it on accident. Only the most advanced users are testing the PAR at each fan speed to match their installs.

With the ATI we have tested the lights on all fan speeds and there are pretty significant differences between each speed. I have also found that there is no perfect setting because the ideal fan speed is different for each length and quality of bulbs as well as ambient air temp. In any case, I have found the "ideal" speed to vary based on fixture used and install configuration. For instance installed in a hood or even a warm fish room is very different than a hung in a cool basement.

We did find removing the shield and running the fans to cool the ballasts comes pretty darn close to best performance in a wide variety of environments. I get that almost no one does that with an ATI fixture because the 98% reflective material they use can rust fairly easy but this is typical to retro installs, fixtures without active cooling and a ton of different scenarios. I don't think there is a right answer to this that is reasonable to implement. So as we run these bulbs for the next year to potentially simulate three years of use I certainly think we are going to get a pretty decent window into how often we really need to change them.

Just as a fyi we are running temp experiments this week and will share the results in next weeks video : )

I can tell you from personal experience that the bulbs won't last as long without being actively cooled, which means with the splash guard on. Essentially the way your doing it, the bulbs are being open air cooled if at all.

I've had more than a few open air ballasts and bulbs(LET kits) with no canopy or fixture enclosure to hold heat........ the bulbs will lose about 4-5 months of holding spectrum versus being cooled in an ATI fixture as it was designed.

Not sure what your goal is on the testing but your data is only as good as your design of experiment (DOA).
If the test isn't set up right the data is flawed.

If you want to test open air fixtures and bulb life you should have used LET fixtures..........if you want to test bulb life in an ATI fixture you need to keep the splash shield on. That is two totally different tests and I assure you the outcomes will be very different.

Anyways, at this point it doesn't matter as you're going to defend how you set up the test as it's already under way and can't be changed.

 

[DSC reef]

I can tell you from personal experience that the bulbs won't last as long without being actively cooled, which means with the splash guard on. Essentially the way your doing it, the bulbs are being open air cooled if at all.

I've had more than a few open air ballasts and bulbs(LET kits) with no canopy or fixture enclosure to hold heat........ the bulbs will lose about 4-5 months of holding spectrum versus being cooled in an ATI fixture as it was designed.

Not sure what your goal is on the testing but your data is only as good as your design of experiment (DOA).
If the test isn't set up right the data is flawed.

If you want to test open air fixtures and bulb life you should have used LET fixtures..........if you want to test bulb life in an ATI fixture you need to keep the splash shield on. That is two totally different tests and I assure you the outcomes will be very different.

Anyways, at this point it doesn't matter as you're going to defend how you set up the test as it's already under way and can't be changed.

Have you actually tested your theory about bulbs not lasting without the splash gaurd? Why not just wait for real data that Ryan will produce instead of being so combative? You might learn something. That's the whole point of all this right? Ofcourse there will be disagreements but to just tell someone like Ryan who obviously has experience in this field that his testing is basically garbage is a bit far fetched. Not trying to be hostile here. I like the info that comes from these tests as I'm able to decide on my own what products I'd like to use.

 

[dz6t]

I've had more than a few open air ballasts and bulbs(LET kits) with no canopy or fixture enclosure to hold heat........ the bulbs will lose about 4-5 months of holding spectrum versus being cooled in an ATI fixture as it was designed.
.

How do you measure the spectrum lost?
I will love to see some data on this.
By the way, majority of the t5 grow lights for plants do not have splash guard and fans.
In my personal experience, you don't need fans if you don't have the splash guard to trap heat.

 

[Big E]

For anyone interested here is an excellent thread on how important active cooling is versus having none.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1641235

 

[Greaps]

I for one have become a BRS fan boy over the years. It may make some uncomfortable having a retail store be a leader in our hobby. But it is in BRS best interests to present accurate and fair information, especially in our market with gear marketed to heavily invested players. BRS continually takes risks to their credibility with these presentations and for the most part the reaction has been positive. They could play it safe like most and sit back and make a nice video and read the manufacturers spec sheet to us. Do we just trust the manufacturer or do we like things independently verified. This is a retail warehouse with a testing room, not NASA, yet so much quality information is provided to us weekly.

 

[DSC reef]

For anyone interested here is an excellent thread on how important active cooling is versus having none.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1641235

Im going by your words of "personal experience" meaning you actually had data from your own experiment. Thanks for the link.