We need a new concept of cycling tanks

[Ippyroy]

@BRS brought up a great point last week about cycling our tanks and how we to rethink it. We currently only deal with the nitrogen cycle and forget about or don't even think about the bacterial part of it. This is the problem that newer tanks seem to deal with. We have gotten to the point where we can put together a tank in a week and have fish in them fine. Then we have to struggle for a year or so with all of the issues that arise from dry rock and dry sand. I personally prefer dry sand and dry rock because of the complete lack of invasive pests, yet I am missing a large amount of helpful biodiversitey organisms like sponges and other natural filters as well as the almost complete lack of good bacteria. I can't find much if any good information on this.

I am just beginning to cycle a small 20 gallon AIO. I am using Microbacter XLM and ammonia and will add Microbacter Clean after the first week. After a month of dosing both I will add a fish or two, then I will add some mud and other fun things from ipsf.com hoping to incease the biodiversity of my tank from the early start.

Sorry for the long winded post, but are there any other things I could do to help it along besides using live rock? I am open to any and all suggestions.

 

[EMeyer]

Real live mud and sand (not the stuff from the petco shelves) are also helpful.

 

[92Miata]

Here's a piece of advice - I'd you don't want to spend a year fighting with screwy algae/dinos/etc nutrient issues - don't dose ammonia.

So many of these issues are the result of brand new reefers having their tanks jacked up to 100 ppm nitrate and then having to deal with the results of that jacking with your phosphate, alkalinity, and everything else.

Stop dosing ammonia, and everything is way easier.if you really feel the need to waste a month cycling - do it with a balanced nutrient source.

 

[Ippyroy]

I only dose ammonia once. Ghost feeding freeze dried mysis from here on out. 1 cube a week.

 

[JoshH]

Here's a piece of advice - I'd you don't want to spend a year fighting with screwy algae/dinos/etc nutrient issues - don't dose ammonia.

So many of these issues are the result of brand new reefers having their tanks jacked up to 100 ppm nitrate and then having to deal with the results of that jacking with your phosphate, alkalinity, and everything else.

Stop dosing ammonia, and everything is way easier.if you really feel the need to waste a month cycling - do it with a balanced nutrient source.

So you're saying don't use ammonia atall to cycle? What do you define as a balanced nutrient source? If brand new reefers followed the whole process of using ammonia properly in a fishless cycle, Nitrates would never be an issue as the final water change is designed to eliminate the excess nitrates.

I'm also not entirely sure how excess nitrates effects alkalinity atall, do you mind expanding on that comment?

 

[Ippyroy]

The nitrogen and ammonia cycle aren't the real issue. I am trying to figure out a way to help the bacterial cycle along and increase biodiversity without the expense and hassle of live rock.

 

[paintman]

please explain how dosing ammonia=screwy algae /dinos/etc.

 

[Ippyroy]

please explain how dosing ammonia=screwy algae /dinos/etc.

It makes people have very high nitrates that they take down too quickly which causes them to bottom out. Not everyone does this, but many do. The more ammonia you dose, the higher your NO3. I think 3.6 NO3 for 1 ammonia? Don't quote me.

 

[BigRed78]

For biodiversity in my tanks I bought all dry rock. I then went to various different lfs’ and bought a small piece of seeder rock from each one. I would ask about specific stuff too. I was looking for pinaple sponges and the owner dig some rock out for me that had them.

 

[weamdog]

I have to agree and would take it one step further. I have 9 tanks running and it is my opinion that the more we tweak things the more unstable our enclosed eco systems get. It would be nice if we could somehow measure the different bacteria cultures to ensure they are balanced and not out competing each other as that's when things go south. My last two aquariums I've setup have used mud and I can only believe that it was positive because I had Coco worms showing up out of nowhere. All my pests have come as hitch hikers from frag purchases. As a matter of fact, think I'm gonna order me some fresh mud this weekend. I've never had a bad breakout or any breakout for that matter on my mud tanks come to think of it. My only algae problem has been coralline which I introduced as well. So I'm plus one for mud to the cycling process.

On one tank I tried those little glass bottles of different types of bacteria which was a huge mistake, almost had to start that tank over again due to all the bad stuff winning.

In case anyone is interested, the mud i used is AF life source, think only MD has it in stock, only a few left.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Hi @Ippyroy ,

My last Tank was started with ocean rock and sand from Tampa Bay Aquatics. I set it up and stocked it over a day and half. I think the upfront costs are higher and the aggravation is a bit more, but in the long run it is worth it. The costs came in where you pay for the overnight airfreight to get the rock and sand in fresh. Basically out of the ocean and in the tanks within a day or 2. The annoying part is all the hitch hikers. I did not settle on a final rockscape until I was sure I was done picking out gorilla crabs. That said I would not set up a tank without seeding it or getting live rock. Who knows what is in the bottles exactly.

measure the different bacteria cultures

Contact @AquaBiomics . They ran full test on my 10 year old tank for biodiversity. Really interesting stuff in the report and great guy to work with.

 

[Justin_Casper]

There’s also something I noticed on the dosing ammonia thing when I was setting up my current tank. If you look at old Dr. Tims videos, he states to add one drop per gallon. Within the past few years that has grown to four drops per gallon. Unless the concentration changed in their ammonium, this could account for newer reefers following the directions of four drops per gallon and overdosing ammonia and then having ridiculously high nitrates.

I also had success with multiple bacteria sources i.e prodibio, vibrant, biospira. of course at different times, but I slowly added different bacteria sources over the past 6 months, haven’t lost a coral other than a lokani that I stupidly dipped in revive.

 

[deerhunter06]

I prefer to find a liverock dealer who will ship me rock submerged in water and avoid a cycle all together.

 

[154162]

Man I was in the same boat, came from the fw side, and was a noob on the salt... use dry rock they said, no pests, as a noob I don’t want to deal with pests, so I set up dry rock... then I’m reading about how low biodiversity doesn’t help you out with algae... I posted about this on a thread:

Adding biodiversity to a “sterile” tank

I was wondering how to add some biodiversity to my tank, right now it’s just Fiji pink “live” sand and some CaribSea liferock and a clownfish... I will be adding CUC when I get some algae going (lights have only been on for 2 weeks when clown was added after the cycle) I realise there’s not...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyway the after talking to a few people, most people will say that adding live rock will come with more good biodiversity than bad, and mostly allways outweighs it...
frag plugs, and all sort of corals come littered with pests too and even with dipping some slip through, just got to let it balance out... I’ve come to peace with it, and I added a piece of live rock... without fish in my tank right now, it’s blossoming, chitons, pods everywhere, bristleworms, bristle starfish... this what will help us in the long run!
I was scared at first but now I’m converted... you got to adhere to some « rules« of nature...
If would do it all again with a big tank I would do dry rock but with some live rock too seed the tank, cycle the tank and let it sit for two month with lights off... then i think you would be setup for success... but it’s hard obviously we want to add things in as son as possible

 

[vetteguy53081]

Rubbish !!!

Ask the pros from the show "Tanked". It can be done in 15 minutes

 

[MiniCoco]

@BRS brought up a great point last week about cycling our tanks and how we to rethink it. We currently only deal with the nitrogen cycle and forget about or don't even think about the bacterial part of it. This is the problem that newer tanks seem to deal with. We have gotten to the point where we can put together a tank in a week and have fish in them fine. Then we have to struggle for a year or so with all of the issues that arise from dry rock and dry sand. I personally prefer dry sand and dry rock because of the complete lack of invasive pests, yet I am missing a large amount of helpful biodiversitey organisms like sponges and other natural filters as well as the almost complete lack of good bacteria. I can't find much if any good information on this.

I am just beginning to cycle a small 20 gallon AIO. I am using Microbacter XLM and ammonia and will add Microbacter Clean after the first week. After a month of dosing both I will add a fish or two, then I will add some mud and other fun things from ipsf.com hoping to incease the biodiversity of my tank from the early start.

Sorry for the long winded post, but are there any other things I could do to help it along besides using live rock? I am open to any and all suggestions.

Spend some time reading the information on the Algae Barn website. Good info

 

[beaslbob]

Nothing new with this idea. Start the tank with macro algae, wait a week, add a Molly and don't feed it for a week. Then start feeding a single flake per day.
My .02

 

[Dfletchh]

I am going on week 2 on my cycle. The tank has live rock and live sand. I dosed MicroBacter 7 and started phantom feeding mysis every other day. After the first week I never saw a spike in ammonia. Maybe it was a mistake but I bought Dr Tim’s ammonia and followed the directions. I had been phantom feeding so I added 2/3 the recommended dose. My ammonia is now sitting at 3ppm which it was at 0ppm. A week has passed and ammonia has not budged. The tank also has had a bacteria bloom for the past 3 days. Worries me a bit but not much to do but wait it out. I would say if using ammonia take it very slow.

 

[User1]

You can cycle a tank by dosing ammonia. That isn't the problem. No patience and lack of book smarts is the problem. Everyone is in a rush, asks Google Assistant, SIri, Alexa, or social media posse (and not the police). I think it is a generational thing honestly.

The older crowd or boomers as we so blatantly get called be it here or video games or anywhere else read books such as the Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder by Martin Moe, or the Conscientious Marine Aquarist by the late and great Mr. Fenner. Just two fine examples that discuss topics such as cycling and reef biotypes.

I know this is coming in hot but there is a wealth of information that is missed when people search on the internet for the quick answer rather than teaching themselves to fish. Therein lies the issue. At least in my opinion. I do hold the right to be incorrect and usually am...

 

[BradB]

Bacteria work even if you don't think about them or know they exist.

Cycling is less of an issue in a 20 than a 200 gallon.

Live rock is nice, but not necessary. Ask an experienced reefer with a large tank, and they will probably sell you some from their tank cheaply.

Add the least aggressive fish first, feed sparingly at first, stock slowly.

I haven't heard of dosing Ammonia, but it should work. I have heard of adding fish food to a tank before you put fish in it, which should do the same thing.

Nitrates are fine at 20ppm, but ammonia is lethal at 0.02 ppm. If your Nitrates are high from adding Ammonia, you are adding at least 100 times as much as you should.

High Nitrates without high phosphates is not a big problem, especially when you only have 20 gallons to do water changes.

What people have been doing over the past 30 years works well. People only get into trouble by trying to rush the process.