We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

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brandon429

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Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles?



Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted

or If you are invited to show what you can do at a reef convention, you wont be given 30 days and a dead shrimp as ramp up... you'll need to reef by Friday. If you are reading this on a Friday, we've got till the afternoon to get your reef ready, there are legit reasons in reefing to not wait 30 days + dead shrimp to cycle a reef tank. Speed cycles are the same quality as slow cycles, Dr. Reef's thread shows. he does 100% water changes before re-assessing ammonia oxidation; this is proof of being 'locked in' so how long we wait for a cycle to lock, complete, has now sped up just like internet speeds have sped up

same internet, faster



begin our thread by searching out a common cycling chart online and observe the number of days it takes to control ammonia, and those didn't factor expensive bottle bac use which Dr. Reef has already shown in his 90-page bottle bac thread to be very effective. On your cycle chart read, does ammonia ever come back up after it goes down by day ten? trending...notice when ammonia takes action on the chart, how fast that happens typically, and how it sustains or does not sustain.

Last prep question: if you searched every cycling chart on the internet, does ammonia ever self-rise back up, after going down?

Why aren't cycling charts referenced in MACNA talks about ammonia control?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

This thread aims to prove that nitrite stalling and ammonia stalling never happens in reef cycles, and that the sum effect of being told it does causes bottle bac sellers to sell huge vast amounts of bacteria to you, redundantly, whereas not buying the bottle bac again still has the same outcome to your reefing that buying it has.

#1 false reading ammonia post in 2021 is this one, look how everyone agrees the tank cannot handle ammonia after being an sps reef for a good while.

look how API told him the cycle was stalled, 8 ppm ammonia, and we proved it was not stalled in the least

look at patterns here of purchase impulses that were interrupted.

An example

false nitrite stall purchase averted


*Have you ever wondered how reef conventions like MACNA pull off getting 500 tanks to show up ready, reefing, on the exact start date? Its by not following the same rules prescribed to forum cyclers (sales targets)

Seneye is the new referee until we get a valid competitor


*****try and find and link here any seneye logs that show stuck tenths ppm ammonia, Red Sea and api show that a hundred times a day on all forums. Why no seneye? <—- clue


the accuracy of seneye is needing benchmarked / proofed in the hobby as it stands alone as the sole tester able to read thousandths ppm conversion rates for nh3. The reason I happen to enjoy seneye is because it provides the truest insight into what bacteria really do vs the old hobby standby API ammonia. Seneye shows that reefs dont vary in ammonia control abilities post cycle, thats a polar opposite reading we get from API and Red Sea etc



Lets track up-close API readings with actual tank biology we can visually see in this thread, does stated free ammonia really happen without consequence in a reef tank? hard purple nitrite levels, shouldnt that cause a crash?

 
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brandon429

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Visual aspects in a functioning reef tank give you cycling confirmations you don't have to test, even with seneye. Bioloading in an uncycled reef, a prematurely started reef, dies in about two days/its the equivalent of kidney loss in larger organisms, nh3 ammonia is so toxic for our tanks...lethality sets in fast.

first clue about false stuck cycles: the consequence-free nh3 tank. Doesn't occur. Doesn't matter what tester is saying nh3 is not under control, if your reef looks normal, it is. We have caught now 2 seneye machines misreading due to this rule, although its two out of thousands Ive seen vs every api post as a misread puts seneye in better standing for the eval, in my opinion.

The day we see a stuck cycle is the day we see a fully dead reef tank all cloudy smelly and rotting. nh3 failure to control is 100% consequential 100% of the time without outliers. no dogs were ever found to remain alive without kidney function, just the same.



the concept that a reef with living organisms doing just fine in pics, no aerotaxis/thigmotaxis in fish (from ammonia burning) or closed up corals, yet a claimed sustained .25 free ammonia i find 100% not possible to occur, ever. anyone else agree or disagree but with digital measures avail? there are like 500 seneye users by now, surely someone has cycled with one and has the graphs.

nitrite, the same. it doesn't matter if you detect nitrite or not, it doesn't factor. Don't make bottlebac purchases because a video on YouTube tells you a cycle has stalled

if you don’t own a three hundred dollar digital ammonia tester, base your cycles on the repeating timeframes every work example post here will share. Cycles do not behave differently tank to tank, they’re consistent tank to tank in fact if we align and measure common boosters applied

we have been told by bottle bac sales companies that cycles easily get stuck so that we buy more retail bottle bac, my going theory. False .25 is a sales driver, registering nitrite on API is a BIG sales driver...I’d like to stop that revenue stream using facts we can test here.
 
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brandon429

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I think in about five years the digital testers will be popular enough we can have fast data but until then my only option is to beg for data lol
 
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brandon429

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The reason API ammonia is misleading everyone: you demand to see a zero per instructions given to you regarding cycle completion. All you have to do is measure a reduction in free ammonia over 24 hours, when ammonia moves down it doesn't stop moving to the safe zone/thousandths ppm / unless you don't have enough surface area in your reef tank. Rocks and sand, or rocks, makes enough surface area such that you wont 'stall' and such that any new bioload added lives just fine.

you don't need a hard zero API to prove ammonia is ready; you need the sample to move down by the next day and that's the same confirmation.
 
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homer1475

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API is notorious for reading .25 ammonia when in fact its actually 0.

I actually think the problem lies with them using the same reagents for fresh as they do salt. When you mix their reagents in salt, the water gets slightly "thick" and aleays has that slight green tint to it.

I don't think the problem is stuck cycles, its people using API because their cheap and easy. No one will use anything else starting out unless the LFS tells them to. Any big box store that most people are going to go to to get advice and startup, sells API. Unfortunately that is never going to change anytime soon.

199.99$ for the seneye to monitor ammonia(yes I know it does more, but were only talking one parameter here), or 25$ for the API master reef kit. If you were starting out and have already had the hard purchase of tank, stand, LR, LS, lights, return pump, and PH, which do you think you would choose?


It's not stalled cycles, its getting people to stop using the API ammonia kit.
 

Dan_P

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I've always enjoyed the done-deal refereeing available in chemistry forums because if you mix A and B wrong, you get a measured outcome, fully predictable, and its consistent.

chemists are able to be consistent in what they do, I like how matters of chemistry are closed books pretty much... not much wiggle room to negotiate.

Well the claim that reefs reach an ammonia level of .25, early in the cycle perhaps, in a tank using sand and rock (excessive surface area) and then might maintain that reading for X number of days I think is false...to directly go against a major reef paradigm is only fun if thirty mathmazing chemists want to disprove you lol so Im asking for a hard fast answer on if a sustained .25 is possible in reefing, ever. And, show me a measure of it being done not by API

The problem I have with claimed .25 sustained, as in more than a day, is that the claim goes against all resource posts regarding the hunger of a reef system for raw ammonia. Randy had on here about 2 yrs ago a neat post about transition rates between free ammonia and rate of uptake in a marine system and the command was fast, heavy, with no waste or leftover. Ammonia is raw gold substrate on a reef, its used fast. I struggle to think of something used faster/oxygen I guess but ammonia ranks possibly second highest on produce/use scale of anything I recall reefing. let me know if Im far off base here

never paused, but actionable. the only way you got down to .25 from a higher rating was a nonstop removal of ammonia, nothing makes it just stop once started unless antibiotics are in play.

when death happens there can be a breakpoint where surface area cannot keep up*** and thats a crash if lethal levels of ammonia are attained, I do agree deaths can cause ammonia spikes in living systems my only beef is with sustained .25 levels, I think it never occurs.

api is the sole source in reefing for .25 referencing. We dont have a single digital measure confirming the claim, and if any one here has old cycling charts from seneye or mindstream, you are sitting on confirmational gold.

how long does a system at ANY phase of maturity hold the .25 free ammonia reading, when that setpoint is reached

*activated surface area is activated, it doesnt hover half-covered by bacteria. When ammonia moves detectably down in reefing, there is no mechanism for hovering at .25 or .5 due to excessive surface area we use

I would like to have this claim investigated and ended, can we use something other than API just this once, please/

Perfect timing! I am currently looking into upgrading the API test performance In a spectrometer. I want to push the detection limit to 0.05 ppm. By the way, the chemistry of API is fine. The human vision is the issue :)

If this goes well, it could be fairly straightforward to test how quickly a sample of aqauarium water and a sample of substrate consume ammonia. @taricha just performed an exploratory experiment that indicates low levels of ammonia is consumed in a few hours in an aerated aquarium water (years old system) sample. This could be extended to determining whether Chemiclean has a detrimental effect.
 
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brandon429

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Ok perfect agreed we are all in a mix of subjectivity with the api system. I see line fill issues on posted pics (below, above 5 mils) using fw cards on the marine system, a post from this forum last week noted a shift in reading after waiting five mins, there is incomplete reagent shaking claimed for test issues, kitchen lighting hue, my gosh man lol

but undoubted they can be made to work, Dr Reefs pics posted are clear discernible zeros on his bottle bac thread. Peeling consistency out of the mix seems the challenge theyre going to be a mainstay in the hobby for foreseeable future

i can not envision a biosystem able to move down a 2 ppm sample, either through active surface area or by bac dosing in suspension, where 1.75 ppm is oxidized but .25 cannot be. There’s no stopping ammonia uptake when the ball is rolling. I can’t even fathom how a legit dead tang in the rocks will hover at any reading. It should ramp up, reach max measure, then ramp down there’s no hover mechanism available I can see. An empty glass tank can hover but a system w surface area, nope is the prediction.

my cycling threads only look for movement down on an api reading, we don’t look for hard zeros and in that calibration we use api just fine. We disregard any hovering/holding measure and we disregard attaining zero but if they have a kit that shows hard yellow that’s ok too but it’s not out swing votes in stamping a cycle closed


*****we need from seneye or mindstream users: what a dead fish looks like in your full tank, peaks troughs and holds. Someone has a croaked tang stuck up under 100 gallons of antler rock, post measures
 
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homer1475

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If you have used the API kit for any amount of time, you learn that the actual yellow for 0 in marine, is always slightly green.

It's newbies that are looking for that bright yellow that do not understand that in a marine environment the API kit always has a tint of green.
 
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brandon429

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I want to hit the revenue stream of bottle bac sellers because mass .25 and .5 concern is funding them by groupthink but not actual need, claims that generate revenue for someone are due for scrutiny

Coming for those guys with many links of logged work

*bottle bac sellers did not start the notion imo, it self perpetuates daily in anyone’s new tanker forum on any board, web posters promote the concept (an unintended insult to surface area mechanics) but I think bb sellers have now myriad things for sale to ease concern noted, instead of writing these key details on their label:

-do not use our product on live rock where coralline and fanworms and algae are attached, you will be wasting money. The grand law of reef depositional order of ops places nitrifiers and random bac as colonizers number one, what you are seeing are colonizers number 500, time elapsed between 1-500 is well past time to set up a biofilter. Yes, you can be sure where a fanworm is adhered and open for photo that very rock is cycled. Google cycle charts say they’re all set by day 30. don’t use our product redundantly we don’t want to be thought of as tricksters. Use us to skip cycle dry starts, to set up hospital tanks, to manage quarantine systems, but not one drop on live rock because live rock transfer cycles don’t kill bac they transfer just fine all the time says all of macna

-stop measuring nitrite and throw out your test kit and never measure for it again. Certainly don’t base a cycle being complete on the measure you will hesitate forever. Do not add our product due to a nitrite measure using api. Only ammonia control matters in cycling. This is why everyone who starts reefs at a MACNA convention all get to start on the same day, without showing up 30 days early debating slight hues in color. Nitrite testing is rife with adulterated readings (using Prime) and cross reads for nitrate. few are measuring nitrite accurately in the hobby it’s all guessing. I can find you ten matured reef tanks at any time that register some nitrite from api. I can link right now a dry start instant skip cycle reef with anemones and ten fish set up long before nitrite had time to stabilize. Nitrite doesn’t factor in reefing it factors when you measure off glass slides.

-you are buying a 1-3 day cycling product and we are charging you nicely for it. If you are still tinkering with your ability to start a reef at 53 days out, are you ever going to pay for three day cycling again? your testing must be api. Get seneye



theyre going to need a huge label to please me.


right now I can pull up a MACNA talk stating clearly reef water has no nitrifiers, nitrite can stall your cycle, yet I’ve got a trove of data coming up saying polar opposite. A six year old reef is plumbed now to Tuffloud’s brand new dry rock system, sharing water only with a six year sps reef, and the new rocks will be unlinked and measured on day 30

Anyone wanna place bets ahead of time if water transmits nitrifers to the new system



the nerd battle starts by us ending or upholding the notion of ammonia being stuck, ever, in any way. Can’t wait to see some final measures.
 
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Brew12

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Fascinating discussion! I am no slouch on chemistry, but I had to Google two words so far, and now I am researching a Seneye...
Seneye could be a great resource. They have loads of data on how tanks process ammonia during a cycle. Not sure if they would be willing to share it....
 
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brandon429

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Brew I never thought of that nice one


maybe one of the seneye reps for them can at least comment on if they’ve ever seen any arrangement using mass rock and sand surface area hold at .25 or .5 in any arrangement at any phase.

in my opinion not one seneye user ever reporting a stuck cycle means something significant though total number of users is still low.


here is someone specifically buying bottle bac due to a .25 reading. It’s not that this tester needs a confirming test, it’s that it is not possible for them to have .25 under any circumstance.
https://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2703439


New thread for 2.28- cycle measure has caused two hundred dollars in extra bottle bac purchases, we're currently in process of fixing this cycle and calling it complete.

 
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brandon429

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This is why we must take action. Reef tank cycle biology cannot be updated to 2020 without acknowledging the true nature of surface area mechanics in biofiltration.


I want to know why every cycling article I have ever read, every training printed manual for reefing, didn't tell me how surface area factors into ammonia reading verification.
I have never been told by -anyone- that ammonia cannot stall in a system of excess surface area; that it is by rule in motion or zero (for practicality, I realize seneye registers transition periods in the thousandths) where active surface area exists

only work thread repetition illuminated the finding.

Animals that behave as if they're not being burnt by the harshest compound a reef produces does mean something.
 
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fermentedhiker

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I have to be honest I've never had trouble getting zero on an API ammonia test kit when cycling a tank. Generally that's what I would use because I'm probably never going to test again for it after cycling is finished. The only seemingly stuck cycles I've had were with Nitrite not wanting to go away.
 
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brandon429

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agreed, there are very passionate and justified reefers who've guided big large $$ tanks with api for decades they cannot be left out of accuracy claims. Seabass from nano-reef.com must be acknowledged as an api master, Ive seen the pics of full yellow zeros/ Dr Reef too.

there's something in the reports of hundreds though, that's where we see skews.

Whats your take on that *3* month tank, with fish, and corals, claiming to be stuck at 1 ppm ammonia

it goes against all nitrification and surface area mechanics for a test to show a system can hold at 1 ppm while fish swim, corals open. Somehow we have not been told this, so most people revert to stuck cycle/buy more bac.

*ammonia measure is a chemists dream* my sole intention is to use the matter-of-fact nature of the chem forum to find truth in something that really affects us as a hobby.

the issue covers all forums in reefing, worldwide :) we are attacking a major paradigm (retail $ pump) here, and that's intended.

we have to have a new article or set of rules delivered to the hobby that shows how full surface area systems can have + ammonia at the same level for days or we are going to be wrong about how cycles work forever in the hobby. buying corvettes for bottle bac sellers for ever

heres one: tank looks fine, fish are feeding, brittle star and lysmata shrimp are fine (delicate, proves no free ammonia) yet Red Sea shows free ammonia without question and the reef owner has bought multi bottle bac in response, divided out corals to other tanks till ammonia stabilizes

yet there never was free ammonia out of control.

in this thread we will be linking biological clues to false test reads from non seneye testers.
 
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fermentedhiker

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agreed, there are very passionate and justified reefers who've guided big large $$ tanks with api for decades they cannot be left out of accuracy claims. Seabass from nano-reef.com must be acknowledged as an api master, Ive seen the pics of full yellow zeros/ Dr Reef too.

there's something in the reports of hundreds though, that's where we see skews.

Whats your take on that *3* month tank, with fish, and corals, claiming to be stuck at 1 ppm ammonia

it goes against all nitrification and surface area mechanics to think a system can hold at 1 ppm while fish swim, corals open. Somehow we have not been told this, so most people revert to stuck cycle/buy more bac.

*ammonia measure is a chemists dream* my sole intention is to use the matter-of-fact nature of the chem forum to find truth in something that really affects us as a hobby.

the issue covers all forums in reefing, worldwide :) we are attacking a major paradigm (retail $ pump) here, and that's intended.

we have to have a new article or set of rules delivered to the hobby that shows how full surface area systems can have + ammonia at the same level for days or we are going to be wrong about how cycles work forever in the hobby. buying corvettes for bottle bac sellers for ever
Yeah, I've never had detectable ammonia after cycling has finished. Even in tanks that were crashing. I have a couple tanks with those ammonia badges in them that have never shown any ammonia no matter what was going on in the tank.
 
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brandon429

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as we wait for a seneye user to save the day, I will link examples of stuck ammonia causing doubt and re purchase of bottle bac for added peace of mind


Redundancy fuels bottle bac sales illegitimately. Doubt started at the lfs here, do live rocks moved home in water lose bac? Do they lose bac if heading to macna two hundred miles away?

when the rock was brought home, before buying bottle bac, he can look for benthic attachments. Algae, an open fanworm, a vermitid alive with a slime trail - cycle confirmers

If no visual cues proving months underwater then test for ammonia movement down, only buy bottle bac if the system cannot move ammonia down.

If we don't get accurate control of cycle science for 2020 and beyond they're going to take our money nine bucks at a time. We wouldn't buy bottle bac until a specific test tells us to. We wouldn't buy it just in case.

Do not get bilked by the bottle bac industry team. Having anything living attached to a rock means the whole rock is cycled. No verifying required, when we buy corals they ride home just fine, people make you think live rock can't do the same to sell you things
 
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