We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Dr. Dendrostein · May 14, 2020

all I know is about a month ago my do-it-yourself canister filter the top came off it and drain like 20 gallons from the sump and I caught it at that point. So I had some fresh salt water sitting around just made like a day or two ago and filled it back up and concerned with ammonia Spike I added Prime to it. Didn't lose any creatures

At that time I had 22 Pacific oysters and now just today we're up to 55 Pacific oysters. No loss of oysters or corals

brandon429 · May 15, 2020

CopingwithPods

thats a great point. The way your statement ties in here is that if those degrading components did rise up ammonia, it won’t hold at .25 on a working calibrated seneye

those components will either be converted safely like typical bioload, or theyll cause a compounding rise that will not stick, or hold, in the presence of typical surface area.

the hobby would have us believe the measures would indeed hold at .25 or .5 daily, fifty days etc

my thread says the readings simply can’t ‘hold’ or stall out at the same level, free ammonia is too dynamic to hold in place we can see by using accurate testers.

taricha · May 17, 2020

@brandon429 If we're looking for a way to explain persistent ammonia readings that don't drop to zero (that isn't test kit fault), here's a plausible explanation.

All 3 samples are zero ammonia tank water EXCEPT: the center is with 1mL of distilled water and the right is with 1mL of tap water.
Notice the greenish blush on the one with tap water. This is repeatable, and is likely due to interference from chloramines. (It's not a salinity effect, see the center tube.) Is it a small effect? yes. But also our tap water is really good here. Very low in chlorine/chloramines. I've been other places with much more. Could somebody doing a tap rinse get repeatable green "ammonia" detection from a zero-ammonia tank water? probably so.

brandon429 · Jun 17, 2020

Parameters of newly established reef

My reef tank is less then a month old. Here are the parameters as of today. How does this look?? 16 gallon nano reef with 9 small corals, 3 fish, and few CUC. Fiji live sand and cultured live rock to start. feedback greatly appreciated!! ✌️

www.reef2reef.com

.5 free ammonia claim troubleshot/denied off verbal description of the system before pics or details.

Our chemistry forum thread has destroyed the notion of a stalled reef cycle in my opinion. By 2023 we’ll have 200 examples and no losses, bet.

this is also a false nitrite reading start above.

ssster2020 · Jul 30, 2020

My cycle (evo 13.5, 1st reef tk) seemed to have stalled. Taking advice from Brandon I did a complete water change and added livestock. A bicolor blennie, couple of hermits and snails. That was 1 week ago. Since then I have tested 0 ammonia and 5 ppm nitrates, I still get a little nitrite. Apart from a snail that I lost, I saw it flipped over and the blennie picking at it, later a crab finished it off, the rest seen healthy.
I’m planning on doing weekly 20% water changes. here’s hoping it continues in the positive direction

blasterman · Jul 31, 2020

The API test fluke has been known for decades. Not sure why this is even being rehashed.

Ammonia is not poison. Its food for most of the biomass on earth. Personally I rate testing for ammonia in established tanks about as logical as using a pregnancy test.

Pour ammonia on the dirt in your back yard. Test for it in a few days and it will all be gone. Bacteria in the soil will devour it.

Either use established live rock, or dose a dry start tank with a big dose of ammonia and wait for it to dive.

brandon429 · Jul 31, 2020

To sum up the thread, api has been giving wrong info for decades and we in the hobby took that to mean cycles get stuck incomplete.

we weakened bacteria in our minds, so we can accept false measures as real truth.

api routinely says .25 yet no reef ever shown in reefing using digital measures has ever showed holding/stuck tenths ppm no3 at any stage in reefing, even during the initial cycle. Awaiting links to show otherwise. True nh3 ammonia readings are active, never holding at tenths level.

the major theme in the thread is that active surface area won’t allow holding measures of free ammonia at .25, ever. No arrangement can produce it shown on a digital ammonia meter of your choice.

live rock cycling is dying out, dry rock cycling is in, so we need to understand those dynamics and by using live animals here for proof when seneye isn’t available, we make new rules and new proofs for reef tank cycling around the fact all reefs will cycle by a known date regarding the boosters used, and we can start reefing by that date. Any aquarium showing .25 nh3 is simply using a misreading test kit.

the number one reef tank ammonia reading on google, a million returns, is .25

theyre all wrong reads, not a single one is .25

people buy a lot of retail bottle bac to remedy a ghost condition, we are told by bottle bac sellers that cycles can stall at .25, and I link threads here where they were going to buy more bacteria but were shown not to= second theme we’ve got going - false api reads and a false belief they report free ammonia accurately cause massive unneeded sales of bottle bac, money leaves us due to bad api reads.

brandon429 · Jul 31, 2020

First time cycle... params look ok?

Today is Day 10 of my cycle. I am using the Red Sea Reef Mature system. Brand new tank, with new dry Marco (Macro?) rocks, mostly Nature's Ocean BioActive pink reef sand (the wet stuff), a little more fine Somoan Pink sand, and a couple handfuls of Florida Keys crushed coral. In addition to the...

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new example. This tank is cycled for all the reasons listed here, including MACNA starts, ammonia drops, multi inputs of bac not just one, submersion times, nitrate presence confirming oxidation, but Red Sea ammonia doesn’t agree after 20 days. This is linked to show stark contrast between updated cycle science, which runs reef conventions, and dated cycle science where forum posters must follow different rules than the sellers use.

right now is the specific timed new cyclers will buy extra bottle bac, thinking the first round is dead or stalled, which didn’t occur owing to nitrate readings here/ helpful confirmation the bac aren’t dead

its also a testament that this reported ammonia chart in the thread has been wrong, the whole time. All readings are in tenths ppm/ alarm for false reporting/ title of our thread here.

heres someone contemplating buying supports for a stuck nitrite cycle. Fixed

HELP! - Suggestions needed for Aquarium Cycle.

Ok here we go, I started a 180g tank with dead sand and rock. I started my cycle with fritz turbo start 900, added 2 4 year old clowns (3") from my old tank, I know I am guilty here but after 5 days I added 3 other fishies :( (My blue tang - 4", rabbit fox face - 6" and Royal gamma - 3") I also...

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no reef cycle stalls past it’s known expected completion timeframes factoring all boosters used.

brandon429 · Aug 13, 2020

How efficient is your bacteria?

Specifications: 45 gallon cube/ 14 gallon sump Bare bottom (No sand) Roughly 40 lbs of Caribsea Life Rock Kessil A360x (turned off during this cycling time) Reef Octopus Essence 130 skimmer (also turned off during cycling time) sitting on top of 6x6in acrylic skimmer stand 1 AI Nero 5...

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This man was ripped off in every way possible by using old cycling rules.

brandon429 · Aug 25, 2020

A bump. There is a rush of stalled cycle threads where people have bought bacteria, again, to respond to api

we need to stop that, stop giving cash away to bottle bac sellers after the first round. We are on page six of collecting examples, and not one single reef here is stalled. By page twenty, same pattern will result

brandon429 · Oct 8, 2020

Irrevocable proof that old school cycling science is retired, done, dated, outed, theyre not tricking us much longer into buying bac for false stuck cycles, reef cycles can’t stick.

Nitrites Rising

Hi all, So I recently completed the cycling of my first tank and added a couple clownfish and a couple of snails, however it appears my nitrites are climbing back up slowly, any suggestions as to the cause? Other than water changes, is there anything I can do?

www.reef2reef.com

the concept of either nh3 or nh4 sticking at .25 and holding is retired, done and dated in my opinion. Seneye disagrees, we are six pages with zero stalled cycle dead bioload, is page 26 going to be much different

Ammonia in its forms is always produced always moved through the chain there isn’t a stick or stall point.

post here any cycle thread from any forum and we will unstick it and track their start to see if animals are fine or not

buying bottle bac to seed dry surfaces is great use of bottle bac

re buying it to unstick a cycle is what we are against here

Nitrite does not impact ammonia control in a display tank.

brandon429 · Nov 14, 2020

what should I do? (Cycling)

This will upset the purists, but I went with Mr. Saltwater tanks fish in cycle as its worked for me in the past. Tank has been up about 2.5 weeks 60Lbs fiji pink arag alive and 8oz Dr tims one and only, 2 clowns. 130 total gallons in the tank. Expected a quick cycle, but I've seen no progress...

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seven pages of false stalled cycles we can inspect for follow ups? Data gold.

above, we used updated cycling science to specifically, directly stop a retail purchase in reaction to a false stalled cycle.

how many starting bioloads has this thread killed

no reef tank cycle has ever stalled.

(past it’s known start date relative to boosters used, they have dates on the label and I’ve yet to see one fail. A dead bottle bac cycle will revert to the unassisted cycle timeframe, however long that is and this is how most tanks in the early 80s ran all they did was add dry sand dead skeletons saltwater and wait a month to begin)

Shwammy77 · Nov 27, 2020

I am new at the reefing hobby and my girl and I have been following this thread closely as we cycle our tank (Dr. Tims fishless cycle). After reading this and following your expertise @brandon429 I am going to add my fish today. Here is the data from our tank (Red Sea max e260, with sump upgrade, so 69 gallons total)...

11/16/20- Added Dr. Tims One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria and ammonia drops
11/17/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/18/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/19/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/20/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/21/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/22/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/23/20- Ammonia: 2ppm
11/24/20- Ammonia: 1.2ppm
11/25/20- Ammonia: .8ppm
11/26/20- Ammonia: .2ppm, then 30% water change
11/26/20- After water change, Ammonia: .2ppm (see picture below)

11/26/20- Dosed ammonia to raise it to .8ppm (see picture below, and was trying for .4 but over dosed it)

11/27/20- Ammonia .2ppm (see picture below)

I did calculate Nitrites during that time and they are staying high, but I am not going to bother posting them, because, as you say, they do not matter in saltwater aquariums.

Nitrate started at zero and steadily rose to 50 ppm, even after the water change, they are just staying right there.

Yesterday would have been the 10th day after starting with Dr. Tims, but alas, it was Thanksgiving, so we did our water change and all that. Since the tank shows it can breakdown the ammonia, and it falls in line with your new logic of no stalled tank, we are going to buy our first clowns! I'll post pictures.

If we followed traditional logic, we would consider the tank stalled or have a super lengthy cycle because our nitrites are still showing high (5 ppm) and our ammonia has not ever fallen to 0 ppm throughout the cycle. Thanks for your help and this thread!

brandon429 · Nov 27, 2020

my gosh thank you, really that was concise, clear pictures, really well done.

I am certain your starting bioload will pass, and we're right at ten days which matches the directions on the bottle. very close race, but with that clear ammonia movement that will be less than a starting bioload will present, the test is on
Well done!

Very relevant to our thread bc the current ammonia shows some in place, even after movement down and this is the classic stall warning. *but it sure hasn't been stalling us here at all, page eight. After TAN conversion that tester might be reporting nh3 in the safe zone, the living vs dead animals and the clean vs cloudy water 2 days after adding them will be the final say.

brandon429 · Nov 27, 2020

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

So I can't find any information on the ammonia% of MicrōBacter Quik Cycl if I use the default on the calculator of 9.5% with my volume it suggests 0.24ml. I think what I will do is a complete water change in the morning. I probably won't get all of the water out of the sand as I don't want the...

www.reef2reef.com

we've been operating on the claim no cycle ever stalls here at the same time in the new tanks forum. We like to keep these new tank works going across threads and forums to establish patterning, outliers etc.

Shwammy77 · Nov 27, 2020

brandon429 said:
my gosh thank you, really that was concise, clear pictures, really well done.

I am certain your starting bioload will pass, and we're right at ten days which matches the directions on the bottle. very close race, but with that clear ammonia movement that will be less than a starting bioload will present, the test is on
Well done!

Very relevant to our thread bc the current ammonia shows some in place, even after movement down and this is the classic stall warning. *but it sure hasn't been stalling us here at all, page eight. After TAN conversion that tester might be reporting nh3 in the safe zone, the living vs dead animals and the clean vs cloudy water 2 days after adding them will be the final say.

So... update... Our LFS would not sell us our first pair of clownfish. They said that the nitrites were too high and would basically "melt" the fish's insides and compared it to giving the fish chemo. As a newby, I tried to explain the new thinking behind cycling with bottled bacteria, but as a newby, it didn't seem like I had a leg to stand on. I really like our LFS and didn't want to start our new relationship by telling them that I was going to go directly against their advice. So we bought some bio spheres from their sump to put into our as they suggested.

After everything that I have read, I still think that our tank is cycled and will support life. I am thinking that I will go to a different LSF and pick up a small CUC to show that it is cycled. What should I get? Just a few snails and hermit crabs and then something to feed them?

brandon429 · Nov 27, 2020

we are very much in agreement, no harm to work with them as this is completely rule smashing stuff I expect only .25% of the populace to agree with the claims here lol

that clean up crew of any combo is fine/sometimes hermits kill snails but at this stage of ability we believe even some ammonia from a dead snail should be close to ok, mainly remove any that don't make it.
all crabs acclimated carefully will do fine, and for nice proofing (after a total water change if possible, or as much as you can we like clean starts) input one pellet of feed and lets see how it does a few days.

for comparison, imagine some cuc in dry rocks in a fresh bucket of saltwater plus a feed pellet. they wont make two days they're sensitive and the water will cloud pretty much overnite from their waste, and then as soon as the first one goes/fast clouding and oxygen gone and crash, from no ammonia control.

even though we're testing here with lesser bioloading than fish, extended days of clarity is the makeup proof. by next wed if still looking sharp, took on one more pellet of feed and they ate it/no clouding no rot/that's solid biological proof.

in the end I don't feel too rogue with the claims, we're meeting the bottle bac timeframes at least. very nice input and this represents new cycling science very well, no easy buy in. not everyone w hop on board first step/ nobody wants to be tricked into false claims.
that the lfs has concerns is legit caring on their part.
appreciate the input.

takitaj · Nov 27, 2020

I don't know how helpful this might be but my tank has been running about 4mo now. Started early August.

I started it with Biospira and ammonium chloride. Using the Tropic Marin test kit I watched the ammonia go up and come down and went through that 3 times to test the cycle. Each time it came down to zero.

Over the next week or so I watched the nitrites come down to zero and nitrates go up to around 40. I did a water change and brought nitrates to 10ppm. So ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 10. About a week later I added 2 small clowns and a cleaner shrimp.

Shortly after that ammonia measured .2 and has been .2 since. I know it did hit zero at one point and stayed there until the fish were in there for a week or so, then it went up and stayed there. Unfortunately I don't have any other kits to test against and I have no real reason to buy another at this time. (budget & all) I've since added 3 more fish, a few hermits and a bunch of snails. It still reads .2 ppm ammonia to this day. I tested just yesterday.

I wonder if our tanks are or could ever be at zero, except for the end of a cycle with ammonium chloride, once there's life in there. It's in the water column and is replaced at a constant rate through respiration, etc.. So perhaps the kits that are showing .2 are actually more sensitive and are reading correctly? Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't have a Seneye so I wonder what are some of the Seneye readings are of young cycled tanks with life in them?

brandon429 · Nov 27, 2020

for sure they are consistently .003-.009 and the ones that state hundredths ppm after cycling are probably misreading seneye machines no joke we have a separate thread to track those. tenths ppm sustained will never occur, hands down that's wrong even if from seneye. thousandths ppm for sure on any system with animals in tow, because that's what the surface area we uses runs at consistently. it somehow sets an average conversion rate that is the same tank to tank given no mass deaths etc.

seneyes show thousands of reefs in the thousandths ppm range, its our newest best data to have as comparisons. Its so accurate, I probably will never own any ammonia test kit as its always predictable.

if I did own one, it'd be a seneye, that way I could do bucket cycling tests with it/namely define the timeframe for the unassisted marine cycle.

Indeed those tests you read nead TAN conversions for nh3 then the real reading is much less, and pretty good just for average color testers. its that stark up down movement you list, before carrying live animals, we want to harness as an allowed start date in reefing. and to align with how marine aquarium conventions keep pulling this off over, and over, and over since I was a young lad.

after showing the up/down motion being reported tank to tank here, any tester showing a .2 ish is doing its best to report a live conversion rate, in my opinion.