We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

[brandon429]

False cycle microbiology put out by reef authorities causes 4x bottle bac overpurchase, in the name of nitrite stalling. We will convince them they’re ready, in total opposition to the authorities. See updates now running on the nitrite tank just above in the prior post.

Cycling issues

Hi Newbie here :) I am having nothing but issues with my main tank and if I hadnt sunk so many funds into this venture I would be throwing in the towel :( I realise in hindsight I have made a few mistakes and more than a few unnecessary purchases but here's the story: Set up my system on...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

BTA on live rock in new tank. What do I do?

Got my new biocube 16 set up yesterday with fresh live rock and sand from the LFS. Finished aquascaping, and noticed some tentacles coming out of one of the rocks. Looks like a Bubble tip anemone. Ok, cool. Bonus, right? Well, tank hasn't cycled yet. My ammonia is at or near 0 this morning...

www.reef2reef.com

read first paragraph. Due to confusing online videos that imply all aquariums must cycle, the owner was going to buy bottle bac due to a hovering ammonia reading, we stopped that.
His tank is 100% cycled the day he brought home the rocks.
bottle bac makers are 0 for four so far here.

I bet by 2023 I’ve back edited four hundred stops of bottle bac purchase plus calling out the sellers. Get popcorn

what bottle bac makers purposefully omit: any substrate with an adhered live animal doesn’t need our product, it’s cycled, and it can’t not be cycled, it can’t be partial cycled. See how bottle bac makers make money off hesitation? they’ve built it into our hobby concept of cycling, and it doesn’t exist.

all aquariums have a known date, a specific time on a calendar, where you can begin reefing if you factor simply time underwater, visual cues, and boosters applied. That start date might be day one of a convention for aquariums, or it might be the day you get the keys to the new place, we can meet that date for all reefs.


The booster in this case was complete aquarium pre curing. Moving rocks from one tank to another never ever ever kills the filter bac. Why does our hobby not just unequivocally state that? why has no author ever wrote that in a reef book?

 

[brandon429]

I just retracted my posts in the thread above, the direction of that thread is trending towards more re verification beyond the included bubble tipped anemone that the tank is cycled.




take note how we in forums sell bottle bac on the recommend, we keep up our own payment momentum. he already bought live rock, then reinvested in bottle bac, and might do it again, solely due to test readings from non seneye.



heres one we caught in time. My nitrite has been stuck sixty days. No it hasnt, your cycle is done let’s begin

Help: Fishless cycling stalled at high nitrite levels

Tank size: 62 gallons Tank age: 2 months pH: 8 Temp: 79f Nitrate: 50 Nitrite: 4 Ammonia: 0 Ok, I've been doing a fishless cycling for about 2 months now. I made a big mistake in the beginning where I overdosed ammonia. But my bacteria was able to make it go down to zero eventually after 2 or 3...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Nano sapiens]

[QUOTE="brandon429]



Old school tank self regulators will be decrepit old men in caves reliving tales of the rebellion to a granite wall eventually. Ways that certifiably make coral grow with simple feed and water changes will be relegated back to just lucky strokes, nothing long term without the purchase and then re supplement ongoing purchase. cue vader breathing
[/QUOTE]

LOL, sadly there's a lot of truth behind this statement. Our economic system encourages each generation to become more consumer oriented/reliant and that is certainly reflected in reef keeping culture today. Living examples of long lasting, successful reef aquaria utilizing just the essentials will become even more rare in the years to come as reefing old timers move on...

 

[brandon429]

if they invent dosers that indeed reduce water change work and waste thats a real step up. Ive been enjoying Taricha's work thread on analysis of the sludge digesting action of common bottle bac, very good stuff. lots of purchases are made to try and reduce manual work, manual cleaning of detritus. he's finding those dosers $ really dont reduce much, very good work.

 

[Jason mack]

if they invent dosers that indeed reduce water change work and waste thats a real step up. Ive been enjoying Taricha's work thread on analysis of the sludge digesting action of common bottle bac, very good stuff. lots of purchases are made to try and reduce manual work, manual cleaning of detritus. he's finding those dosers $ really dont reduce much, very good work.

Brandon do you have a link too that thread please ...

 

[brandon429]

Waste Away: Is it really bacterial? Or chemical? What does it do?

[Edits for clarity - 4/21 - shown in brackets] I've been looking into debris that accumulates in the sand (Dan's Thread for that discussion) in our tanks and ways to "clean it up" whatever that means. In the process Waste Away by Dr Tim and similar "grunge-eating" products became of interest...

www.reef2reef.com

he and Dan always do such good science work

 

[Deep dive coral]

So thos is very interesting and I am a seneye user. I got it later in my cycle life but I am currently sitting at .005 NH3. Been like this for about 3 or 4 days. I do not see any I'll effect on the fish. But I'd be willing to share my sene yr e data if anyone wants to see it.

 

[brandon429]

yes thank you so much post all your avai data pls, its such a new device we dont get comparative details much. excellent

we want to see if patterns stand out from the start

 

[Deep dive coral]

Ok. So do I just post screenshots? Or is there a different file you want to see?

 

[brandon429]

either way you think shows trending for ammonia levels pretty well, also can you let us know if you dosed any good sources such as liquid ammonium chloride, or a dead shrimp, or was it a fish-in cycle/ how did it start.

some screen shots are nice that way it'll flow like Jason's above too easy to see n scroll

what if the .25 api reading is actually accurate but one decimal off/.025 that would explain fifty five thousand search returns and be quite complementary to the worlds most used ammonia tester.

 

[Jason mack]

I had mentioned before that I thought the slides degrade near the end of the month ...well I just changed mine and I noticed this ....my ph reading near the end of the month had risen ...

.
On nh3 was a slight difference...
Not sure if this is relevant...

This was NH3 at the time of change of slide

 

[Jason mack]

what if the .25 api reading is actually accurate but one decimal off/.025 that would explain fifty five thousand search returns and be quite complementary to the worlds most used ammonia tester.
This actually makes a lot of sense ...!

 

[Sboling]

API is notorious for reading .25 ammonia when in fact its actually 0.

I actually think the problem lies with them using the same reagents for fresh as they do salt. When you mix their reagents in salt, the water gets slightly "thick" and aleays has that slight green tint to it.

I don't think the problem is stuck cycles, its people using API because their cheap and easy. No one will use anything else starting out unless the LFS tells them to. Any big box store that most people are going to go to to get advice and startup, sells API. Unfortunately that is never going to change anytime soon.

199.99$ for the seneye to monitor ammonia(yes I know it does more, but were only talking one parameter here), or 25$ for the API master reef kit. If you were starting out and have already had the hard purchase of tank, stand, LR, LS, lights, return pump, and PH, which do you think you would choose?


It's not stalled cycles, its getting people to stop using the API ammonia kit.

I got the api tests and the ammonia tests have .25 readings even now, but my tank is fine despite never having a reading under .25 with that test. I just chalked it to false.

 

[Jason mack]

I got the api tests and the ammonia tests have .25 readings even now, but my tank is fine despite never having a reading under .25 with that test. I just chalked it to false.

That's what we are led too believe ....but my seneye says I've always got some ammonia in my tank...even if it is only a small amount ... .012 st the moment...

 

[Dan_P]

what if the .25 api reading is actually accurate but one decimal off/.025 that would explain fifty five thousand search returns and be quite complementary to the worlds most used ammonia tester.
This actually makes a lot of sense ...!

I like this perspective, kinda like a reefing Twilight Zone episode.

@taricha and I spent quite a few hours in the lab recently with the API NH3 test kit. With an unmodified test kit, 0.25 is about the limit of detection by eye, maybe a little lower with a spectrometer. We did modify the test so that 0.05 ppm might just be detectable by eye. With a spectrometer, maybe 0.02. Keep in mind that this value is total ammonia. Since NH3 accounts for a fraction of this total, free ammonia is less than half this value.

 

[Deep dive coral]

Here you go. Here is what I have in seneye data. I used ammonium chloride from Fritz and microbacter7 for my cycle.

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[brandon429]

That is so helpful here to frame concepts!

hey what was the ammonia source during cycle, was it raw ammonium chloride liquid or shrimp decay, or none added/those are environmental / naturally vectored ammonia readings for the first few weeks

thank you for presenting in our collections of digital ammonia measures to scan for extended hold periods, none so far

Whatever ammonia starts at in a cycle, it’s motion is continually down until it reaches max control rate set by surface area mechanics+current etc

ammonia does not stick, stall or hold where normal surface area/rocks and sand are present and inoculated.


hey is it true your current seneye ammonia level is .003/thousandths

 

[brandon429]

Jason M I’m enjoying seeing how these two seneyes in two different reefs run pretty darn close numbers, a real calibration boon for this tester.

 

[Miller535]

I am really not trying to be rude, but just understand what exactly you are trying to prove?

Are you simply trying to prove that in the cycling process ammonia never "stalls" in being consumed and converted to nitrite? If so I have never heard the claim that it does stall out in that manner.

I was confused because at one point you were talking about reef life consuming ammonia as soon as it's produced. But those things wouldn't be present in a cycling tank.

As far as ammonia after a tank is cycled, I tend to lean towards Dr. Farley and believe that every day it is up and down to some amount.