We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Deep dive coral

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
May 30, 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
1,082
Location
Long Island
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I personal think the API test kit is off by a decimal. Also I dont think that ammonia ever really gets to 0. Between feedings, fish poop, urination, etc there is no way. As long as there is no spike and like everything else stability is key.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
the seneye data surely does show ups and downs we agreed on prior pages it’s not hard zero Miller, there is a detection limit lower than the api tester can catch, and inability to test ammonia correctly has caused massive false notions to perpetuate.


the thread is about finally using a good test kit to show truth in cycling, and what conversion-level free ammonia truly reads. At no point can we or will we find ammonia stuck at .5 or .25 where sand and rocks exist—>.25 or .5 perceived is a buying trigger, I’m coming for that to stop the redundant purchase flow because they’re misinforming us and it’s causing us to spend, unjustified.

the title of this thread says .25 stuck cannot occur, but I’ve linked web pages where that false data causes sales as well as cycling videos that tell us ways we can mess up a cycle.



The consequence of a stuck cycle is inability to support life.
we are specifically sourcing out stuck cycle work threads where I go in and show they’re not stuck. If one of my bad calls kills someone’s starting bioload, I’ll PayPal them for it.

we are taking on the cycling establishment here it seems, from nearly every angle they discuss.

any reader, find a stuck cycle thread on any forum and if Im not banned from the forum (price of early peroxide advocacy lol) I’ll go in and use these principles to get fish or coral in the tank, because no cycles are stuck.

we should be buying one bottle bac purchase, adding it to dry start reefs, stop all the 4x overpurchase based on false claims.

let the record state my friend Seabass at nano reef.com was the first to ever tell me about the uber sensitivity ability of API. That .25/.025 notion is owed to Seabass howdy friend.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Just to make sure we aren’t reinventing the wheel here, that new ground is covered, someone try and source out on the internet and post back:


-an example of someone cycling a tank with certainty about nitrification abilities solely by the presence of true coralline or an attached anemone. Visual, non test, 100% confident cycling based off things you can see, excluding all proper testing, show me an author writing that. We test here if it’s true



-post a link to formal reef advice that says you only need to know ammonia to complete a cycle, that nitrite and nitrate as well don’t matter in assessing an allowed start date.

-show me examples of writers who state plainly that it’s not possible for a reef tank to stall at .25 or .5 and that it hasn’t occurred in reefing, only in experiments that alter surface area or surface area exposure. Not in a tank of rocks and sand, both high exposure and massive area. I’ve never read that before, ten thousand web posts have indicated it.


-I already can find examples of not caring about nitrite, I got the idea from reading Randy’s posts.

-show me using web links any form of cycling that goes against the old claims or creates new efficiency rules. Show me a link to something new in cycling, let’s see how all those macna reefs make their start date on time, explained.


If Im not mistaken this thread is a huge outlier for claims made.


we will not be tricked into buying bottle bac for the wrong reasons here. We will find reefers following old rules, about to pay up to bottle bac makers, intercept them, and show them retail vs free science and they can choose which to use. common cable guy vs PhD biologist about matters of biology is the classic underdog scenario.
 
Last edited:

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,574
Reaction score
7,034
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jason M I’m enjoying seeing how these two seneyes in two different reefs run pretty darn close numbers, a real calibration boon for this tester.
Just making a point on analytical devices. Since no one is calibrating their instrument, these ammonia values could be pure fantasy.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
a gen 4 or later edition might show some other more accurate base level operating range? we'll be out to the ten thousandths by 2024 lol
we're into the zone now where we can find scholar articles I bet on the conversion rates/steady states of free ammonia in oceanwater, curious to know that am doing cursory search real quick

*update it ranges based on flow, temp pH as well Im seeing. still looking for stated averages in ppm
so far we do seem to be well past the .5 to .25 levels at least.




**update to prior prediction


that thread shows that nitrifiers are in reefwater, and they actively transmit among connected tanks only via water vector. find the video I posted on page one saying reefwater has few/no nitrifiers.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0


Strong intercept there

the recommend to buy bottle bac despite cycle completion proofing (other than with API) is what we are studying here, the concept of stalled cycling as it relates to buying impulses.


That cycle isn't allowed for in any MACNA talk, by any cycling article, by any book entry that Ive seen. its already cycled, the day it was set up, we list myriad proofs as to why.

Seneye would run in the thousandths here, clearly.


*this isn't a thread for debating cycling opinions. We require work link/example links of stuck cycles to analyze, or we require some form of actual testing to post and discuss. We want this thread to have empirical data, for once.

empirical = fish that are added and we can see if they die or not (uncycled tanks kill all fish, always, fast) or actual ammonia measurements we can comment on. we are interested in simply knowing the stand alone start date for a reef tank, vs the growth period where we feel the need to add stuff we've bought. I told them above directly, exactly, when the allowed start date was.

Once we define how thousands of reefs get instantly setup at marine conventions, this cycle example above does not stand out as remarkable, its as common as water in reefing.

When you have used wet sand and totally live rock with attached hitchhikers, you do not have to reinvest in bottle bac just to be sure.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
A new discussion on nitrite begins


let the official record reflect, in private message ten more tanks are using no stall cycle truthing.

i give you my word a new wave of cycling that doesn’t entertain hesitation is coming, exactly like pico reefs forced their way into legitimacy without asking permission and now there are a hundred thousand running or more.

We will cause a hundred thousand people to STOP over buying bottle bac, based on false cycling principles.

The *reason* for doing this is to impart total control principles at the very start of a reef tank vs fear and concern, this results in less waste, loss and start overs. we don’t rely on retail dosers to control our reefs

*how we view a cycle affects how we view early tank invasions too* so to know exactly what bacteria permit is to have assurance when dealing with potentially tank-wiping invasions. No hesitation benefits all reefing, and to the side it saves us money by reducing unneeded purchases. No stall cycling is better for the hobby than classic cycling.


*last week I made a bad chemistry call on how phosphate moves out of calcium carbonate and was justifiably shredded lol. This is why I love posting opinion pieces in the chem forum... name a place for better junk filtration than here. Anything that cannot be replicated but offered as fact here will be promptly neutralized in print. I want that kind of scrutiny for my cycling claims too. The chemistry forum at reef2reef is non milquetoast and we love that method.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
@Bam327 hey this thread measures what we did for your tank in messaging. We ignored nitrite and nitrate, which were reported high but also in the presence of active ammonia control.

We discerned your surface area from the timeframe it took to reduce ammonia and deemed the cycle closed due to surface area, ammonia control, submersion time and boosters used.
*your first morning with bioloading is here, I thought it would be fun to get updates even if the system does crash. Live time stinger updates. Ps, if that stuff you added dies based on this flow I’ll PayPal you the amnt spent testing the claims.

since you were willing to do the water change work in messaging I can verify sincerity so I’d invest in that if something crashes. Nice job man!
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
hows stuck cycle trending going team

anyone buying bottle bac to remedy nitrite

this is one we're working, the forum is helping to extra-sell the bottle bac based on an unquestioned api nitrite reading, after using Prime. full bioload is in tank.

this is a fascinating market study - these patterns of urge then purchase.

who created the perceived consequence of the stuck cycle that causes more bac to be bought?
we aquarists certainly support the notion by and large, hopefully this much work in this thread causes doubt for some purchasers, and they leave that bioload in place to keep proving things are ok without supplement.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Another seneye proof.


*see how predictable the mechanism is

it doesn’t matter what cycle you look at. If there’s rocks and sand and seneye, ammonia is dynamic and never stalled. When these high surface area systems begin active ammonia control the surfaces become active FAST and don’t ever, ever stall.

fast = mere few hours between inactive surfaces and total coverage of surfaces in performing bacteria.

regarding accuracy of seneye I offer this: maybe we can find via scholar online what oceanic studies show regarding pre conversion ammonia constants in the ocean, we can see if they operate in the thousandths too

seneyes at least consistently shows the ability of activated surface area, no stalls and certainly no lethal sustained spikes occur due to drift or weakening of bacteria, on any tank, using seneye. Not one brand of titration testing can pull that off among twenty samplers.

zero times in this thread has nitrite factored in any start, and at no time did not factoring nitrite affect ammonia compliance.


fifth page, no stuck cycles, all beginning bioloads survive and many of these nitrite positive starts are able to be tracked now for growth, health of animals. ~ ten more cycle starts handled by message chat, the data is mounting fast: those who wrote cycle rules have some accounting to do pun intended.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

that’s the best nano reef maturation work I’ve seen for dry rock starts

We keep testing out of the equation by design. He can go all high tech when he's ready to use less water, but in the meantime he shows an ideal no hesitation start, with no cycle stall at all.

Daniel was one of the first nitrite+ positive starts we logged on initial pages here. His unique resolve to not lose became a standout example of technique others can copy with success for dry rock start systems

his thread has become required reading for nano reef crash arrest threads, why does my nano have RTN threads, should I be testing for phosphate endlessly in nano reef dry start threads...he commands his tank by putting down the guesstimate test kits and picking up the frozen feed and change water bucket.



In that system, nitrite stalling causes headaches.

Notice the chem forum doesn't really entertain stalled cycle / ammonia out of control issues
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0


factors: stuck cycle claims and potential communication shortcomings on my part cause true cycle friction.

it is a very tricky balance to introduce someone to the notion they can’t wield their ammonia and nitrite test kits accurately, it breaks trust in something they’re supposed to be able to trust. the messenger=bad.



without pics we don’t even know if she has enough surface area?

Yes we do, two weeks with fish still alive, after cycle completion they were added, plus feed plus their waste strictly implies it. If we get pics, they’ll be of a high surface area system. My writing style to the side, titration vs seneye ammonia brings concern, hesitation, unease to the hobby. Even if I hadn’t posted and they continue on a pages-long ammonia hunt in a completed cycle, it’s hesitation fear and concern vs absolutely confident about cycling reefing.

Ill be happy when cycling teachers and doctors put out reassuring, vs buy now, videos.


*in the chem forum we don’t want an easy pass. We want false claims hammered into dirt like when I tried to opine about how phosphate leaves rocks unassisted last month. :) now that is chem forum refereeing and precisely why this thread is here.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0


The first SENEYE misread Ive seen.

The biology of the system called it, the pictures of the healthy fish and massive surface area. I began to falter in doubt midway, when my most reliable digital ref was reporting something that cannot occur.

That misread right there makes a very very very strong statement about how cycles cannot stall in reefing and no tester that says they do is right lol, even 1:1000 seneyes that may say it wont be right


That thread had me shocked and in doubt... now the resolve has increased regarding what cycles do and it was pretty firm resolve prior. Until then, I didnt know seneyes could misread and be barely misreading as opposed to something obvious.

The heart of this thread is still in effect: every reef tank with normal surface area controls ammonia naturally, without fail, barring obvious death/rotting fish in the system or unstated medication events that really would kill bacteria.
 
Last edited:

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,574
Reaction score
7,034
Rating - 0%
0   0   0


The first SENEYE misread Ive seen.

The biology of the system called it, the pictures of the healthy fish and massive surface area. I began to falter in doubt midway, when my most reliable digital ref was reporting something that cannot occur.

That misread right there makes a very very very strong statement about how cycles cannot stall in reefing and no tester that says they do is right lol, even 1:1000 seneyes that may say it wont be right


That thread had me shocked and in doubt... now the resolve has increased regarding what cycles do and it was pretty firm resolve prior. Until then, I didnt know seneyes could misread and be barely misreading as opposed to something obvious.

The heart of this thread is still in effect: every reef tank with normal surface area controls ammonia naturally, without fail, barring obvious death/rotting fish in the system or unstated medication events that really would kill bacteria.

@brandon429 do you recall seeing any experiment where little aquaria (1 gal) are set up with different amounts of surface area (different amounts of aragonite sand) that were then spiked with ammonia to see how fast each one oxidized the ammonia?
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Dr. Reef's bottle bac test thread was nearly exactly like that, BUT it was all api and not seneye. however in counterpoint to that, he posted hard yellows as blanks from saltwater and did have test kits that seemed accurate for reporting oxidation.

after inoculating with bacteria, he measured the duration each brand needed until a 100% water change wouldnt affect the refill/passed oxidation test again. we accepted that as proof of active surface area vs suspended cycling like what people use to get by on fish-in cycles/ locus of nitrification is verified with the complete water change follow up

Dr Reef is soon to set up a test using seneye and clownfish + bottle bac to see if fish are burned by in-tank skip cycling using bottle bac. and from that we get to see if irritation level ammonia is possible (where it doesnt lead up to the inevitable crash)
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

attempting to stop a bottle bac click/search purchase here. Tracking outcome. the tank is 100% cycled as marine aquarium conventions are cycled, already cycled rocks are moved among tanks while being kept wet.
earth shattering info


wet bacteria, kept wet and moved eight miles or 800, dont care

anyone who doubts that cycles can not, do not stall, ought to consider reading our work examples we're building bonkers reefs out of these skip cycle tanks / nitrite not factored in any time for the next 20 pages - tanks.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,502
Reaction score
23,583
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Team

Im willing to pay someone with a seneye meter to conduct a very, very important experiment for reefing.


we have NO data on this gross need

we need to know if fish in cycling burns fish or not, if free ammonia reaches ld50 (as they act normal, every post, thread to thread note the pattern/magically immune to ammonia toxicity as is inability to control ammonia buildup is inconsequential)

someone take two sacrificial clowns that will again proceed to live on

add them to a ten gallon nano with wet sand and dry rock

dump in biospira, maybe some fritz

track with seneye lets see if it *ever* spikes out of the hundredths ppm. I think the tenths are considered lethal ld50 levels but we w need to see a citation for that, its roughly what I recall from years ago reading.

Ill paypal you the cost of the biospira first, lets go affordable. and two clowns. normal nemo clowns can someone for once not try your rarest maroon lightning double platinum veil tail

can you just get two clowns that comprise every nano reef since the start

source the tank, rocks and sand pls Im not moneybags. Ill buy the bottle bac and two fish; you do all the rest in the name of stuff every forum guesses about for 20 years but has never measured not once.


the outcome of test and prediction I'd consider to be the most important reef cycle finding of the current era. fish in cycling is BIG $

we are either getting tricked, or transporting aquatic bacteria in water while never applying antibacterial actions isn't all that surprising. without seneye, Id never believe posted results its the only valid umpire we have, along with whatever mindstream readers still function.

You will be using the most up to date ammonia meter we have in this hobby against the practice of fish-in cycling to see if they get 'burned' in this process.

I think your data is going to show the effectiveness of bottle bac; not the ineffectiveness. keep the new fish after and do something neat with them.
 
Last edited:

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,574
Reaction score
7,034
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Team

Im willing to pay someone with a seneye meter to conduct a very, very important experiment for reefing.


we have NO data on this gross need

we need to know if fish in cycling burns fish or not, if free ammonia reaches ld50 (as they act normal, every post, thread to thread note the pattern/magically immune to ammonia toxicity as is inability to control ammonia buildup is inconsequential)

someone take two sacrificial clowns that will again proceed to live on

add them to a ten gallon nano with wet sand and dry rock

dump in biospira, maybe some fritz

track with seneye lets see if it *ever* spikes out of the hundredths ppm. I think the tenths are considered lethal ld50 levels but we w need to see a citation for that, its roughly what I recall from years ago reading.

Ill paypal you the cost of the biospira first, lets go affordable. and two clowns. normal nemo clowns can someone for once not try your rarest maroon lightning double platinum veil tail

can you just get two clowns that comprise every nano reef since the start

source the tank, rocks and sand pls Im not moneybags. Ill buy the bottle bac and two fish; you do all the rest in the name of stuff every forum guesses about for 20 years but has never measured not once.


the outcome of test and prediction I'd consider to be the most important reef cycle finding of the current era. fish in cycling is BIG $

we are either getting tricked, or transporting aquatic bacteria in water while never applying antibacterial actions isn't all that surprising. without seneye, Id never believe posted results its the only valid umpire we have, along with whatever mindstream readers still function.

You will be using the most up to date ammonia meter we have in this hobby against the practice of fish-in cycling to see if they get 'burned' in this process.

I think your data is going to show the effectiveness of bottle bac; not the ineffectiveness. keep the new fish after and do something neat with them.
Couldn’t we spare the fish and use a doser to mimic the fish excretion of ammonia?
 

Copingwithpods

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
1,966
Reaction score
3,141
Location
Los Angeles
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
the nerd battle starts by us ending or upholding the notion of ammonia being stuck, ever, in any way. Can’t wait to see some final measures.

One can also not discount extra ordinary circumstances such as extremely high temperatures killing off the bacteria either by a heater set wrong or another external source. Also using previously wet rock dried out that wasn't washed of organics before being placed in storage later leaching when rehydrate. I would also imagine that bugs can nest and die in dry rocks in transport or storage and when rehydrated provide a steady stream of ammonia all of which can "stall" a cycle. Not really stalled as we know, just being feed a constant unknown ammonia source.

To be clear I'm not disagreeing with you on the stalled cycle aspect just pointing out that there could be other factors at play.
 

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,574
Reaction score
7,034
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
One can also not discount extra ordinary circumstances such as extremely high temperatures killing off the bacteria either by a heater set wrong or another external source. Also using previously wet rock dried out that wasn't washed of organics before being placed in storage later leaching when rehydrate. I would also imagine that bugs can nest and die in dry rocks in transport or storage and when rehydrated provide a steady stream of ammonia all of which can "stall" a cycle. Not really stalled as we know, just being feed a constant unknown ammonia source.

To be clear I'm not disagreeing with you on the stalled cycle aspect just pointing out that there could be other factors at play.
So far all these ideas and perspectives seem to be testable.
 

Mixing lighting technologies: Do you use multiple types of lighting for your reef?

  • I currently use multiple types of lighting for my reef.

    Votes: 57 45.6%
  • I have used multiple types of lighting for my reef in the past.

    Votes: 15 12.0%
  • I haven’t used multiple types of lighting for my reef, but I plan to in the future.

    Votes: 19 15.2%
  • I have no plans to use multiple types of lighting for my reef.

    Votes: 32 25.6%
  • Other.

    Votes: 2 1.6%
Back
Top