Week 2...Tank Still Not Cycling?

brandon429

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I'm spying me some coralline

anyone here think that live rock hasnt spent 52 weeks underwater before this tank

I'll call that cycled base rock its not porous enough for pods inside

but it can nitrify ammonia :)
 
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UnshackledAI

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I'm spying me some coralline

anyone here think that live rock hasnt spent 52 weeks underwater before this tank

I'll call that cycled base rock its not porous enough for pods inside

but it can nitrify ammonia :)
So it's cycled then? :). Should I add ammonia just to be safe?
 

brandon429

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Ill make some predictions going off these assumptions:
1. all the live rock is just like that and none of it is white or gray
2. the live sand was either caribsea arrive alive wet pack, which is ready ive used it for 12 yrs, and that means the tank can process a reasonable bioload or
3. the live sand was not live, its inert material as of yet, to be matured, so your max bioloading is set by the lbs of that cycled base rock used.

That being the case, you can absolutely add shrimp, 3 shrimp, or no shrimp, or cleaning ammonia, or a a couple easy corals and just get started testing this tanks cycling no more. the point is, these bacteria are going to be there regardless and they'll do what you want them to do which is either pass tests or run some bioloading in the order of simple corals and their requisite feed.

It is very hard to trust a tank especially when inside the first rulebreaking thread lol

any tank can have its nitrification abilities tested at any time, add some ammonia and check back in 24 hours to see it at zero. when you do this on 1000 tanks then you w trust! ha lol./

if your live sand was caribsea or similar arrive alive wet packs, that alone means your tank can process any reasonable bioloading. You indeed have some pre cycled rocks, so until you really drive up that ammonia its not going to do much. They are simply filtering that which you are putting in to test them.
 

brandon429

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A neat and fun way to reverse engineer your cycle is to consider rocks that look like this below, from the non live bin at the pet store i shop at (a few here are live looks like they got tossed in but see mostly gray and no coralline


then consider the coloration in your rocks. How many weeks of cycling will it take to turn white rocks into 100% no white patches w coralline, some algae, and a darkened totally calcified coloration (rocks left in a reef white and clean and full of space begin colonization immediately, with algae and bacteria being the first)

you simply cannot produce all white rocks from any reef system that is left underwater months and years, they'll all look like your rocks after months or yrs underwater. We know your rocks were submerged a long time simply off the coloration and details! take that API lol, dont need ya here.

That rock you have isnt porous enough to have hidden dead worms in it, its ready. but not as powerful as massive surface area truly holey live rock with tons of tunnels
 
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UnshackledAI

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Ill make some predictions going off these assumptions:
1. all the live rock is just like that and none of it is white or gray
2. the live sand was either caribsea arrive alive wet pack, which is ready ive used it for 12 yrs, and that means the tank can process a reasonable bioload or
3. the live sand was not live, its inert material as of yet, to be matured, so your max bioloading is set by the lbs of that cycled base rock used.

That being the case, you can absolutely add shrimp, 3 shrimp, cleaning ammonia, or a a couple easy corals and just get started testing this tanks cycling no more.

It is very hard to trust a tank especially when inside the first rulebreaking thread lol

any tank can have its nitrification abilities tested at any time, add some ammonia and check back in 24 hours to see it at zero. when you do this on 1000 tanks then you w trust! ha lol./

if your live sand was caribsea or similar arrive alive wet packs, that alone means your tank can process any reasonable bioloading. You indeed have some pre cycled rocks, so until you really drive up that ammonia its not going to do much. They are simply filtering that which you are putting in to test them.
It was caribsea! :), and your assumption about the LR is also correct, it all looks like the one from the picture for the most part. Thanks again for all your help!
 

brandon429

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it is a nerds paradise to dissect a cycling thread. You posted back fast and I'll link this to other new cycle threads.

amazingly, your tank can process the same bioload now that it could process day 1 after coming home, just like the macna setups.

its already as good as it's going to get, regarding nitrifying bacteria, and that's shocking to consider as we have always been told a cycle is a slow wait. pin the tail on the donkey is a different game w no blindfold though

if you waited and shrimped another 100 days, same. it wouldn't hurt to do that, or forego any more testing and begin light reefing



id add more premium live rock in my onion. start easy ramp up.
 
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brandon429

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Welcome Amit to our cycling thread!

I think your tank is cycled and ready for a light bioload, even if you didnt add the biospira, for the reasons we've listed in this thread see the first posts.

Remember team, im not always going to claim someones 3 day old tank is cycled

but ya'll keep posting pics of coralline spotted rocks, so they were lol.
 

Amit Kumar

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Welcome Amit to our cycling thread!

I think your tank is cycled and ready for a light bioload, even if you didnt add the biospira, for the reasons we've listed in this thread see the first posts.

Remember team, im not always going to claim someones 3 day old tank is cycled

but ya'll keep posting pics of coralline spotted rocks, so they were lol.
It's been set up for 4 days lol. I'm going to the store to check out the test. The live rock and sand been cycled but I added bio spiral the first day of setting it up. Brb
 

brandon429

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That test has an interesting position in knowing about your cycle, its only helpful to know after a load has been presented, an ammonia load. so far no load has been presented, but we can.

In that degree as well your tank is just like Al's, you can easily dose cleaning ammonia to 2 ppm and check back in 24 hours, then those readings will have meaning relative to the predictions made off the kind of sand and lr you use, or you can forego testing and begin light reefing.

Since these are new cycle threads we should test I think, then trust will follow for the biology only if the prediction passes. Then future tanks can be ran on the biology and the cycle will follow the timeliness you've set, not the other way.

The only way to know if a cycle is complete is you have to drive the system to 2 or 3 ppm free ammonium and then see if its zero in 24 hrs

using shrimp varies to get to that level with any consistency, so if someone really wants to test you need to search out any large cleaning ammonia cycling thread, made by any experienced posters in the matter, so they are detailing which exact ammonia to get and use that thread as the reference.

Don't select a small two post thread to reference.
Don't take first search return, dig a little, find a beefy post.

search until you find a big one written and posted by those you can tell in the post know the details at hand, regarding non surfactant cleaning ammonia.

Once you score cleaning ammonia, both your tank and Als can be tested to certainty

we are building a rather powerful cycling thread here, excellent input Amit and thanks for that test. if you can do the ammonia digestion test that will solidify these predictions nicely, or show gaps we need to address in further detail
 

ls2ttgto

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This doesn't pertain to your tank. But its worth a read through, also shows Ace Hardware Janitorial ammonia being a viable source of ammonia to test with. If you can process ammonia, then start adding bio-load slowly. Key word, slowly.

http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-with-dry-rock-marco-rock-is-it-ever-going-to-cycle-i-test-every-day-and-ammonia-is-0.212139/page-2#post-2445045

whorsefield summed it up. Just because a tank cycled minimally doesn't mean its ready to stock up. You want to make sure you get a good build up of nitrification bacteria, this will ensure that the system will handle the increase in bioload once you start adding livestock. As you add more and more livestock, this increases bioload and the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria will need to play catch up to the increased load.

I just helped setup 2 tanks, both 150gal. Similar setups, 1 had sun dried rock and the other had dry/live rock. 2 months in and both tanks are nice and cycled. Slowly started adding livestock, giving the whole system 48 hours to catch up on new bioload each time. Nothing rushed, nothing lost. Told the owners to have patience and just test, test, test.

My 2 cents - Nothing happens fast in this hobby. Take is slow, let nature take its course.




http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-with-dry-rock-marco-rock-is-it-ever-going-to-cycle-i-test-every-day-and-ammonia-is-0.212139/page-2#post-2445045
 
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brandon429

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Is2

I do like that link as a comparison for the other side of cycling, the dry substrate one. makes a good contrast here

he wasn't seeing ammonia due to dilution and low bioloading, a damsel or three diluted into a tank with no waste stored up, or crevices full of millions of respiring bacteria, only clean water, may not get two 2 ppm for weeks in that state depending on variables

Trace diluted fish urine doesn't present ammonia like rotting shrimp and decaying whole mass proteins or cleaning ammonia

it took longer since no cleaning ammonia was used initially.

His tank wasn't given high enough ammonia input, but any tank that gets to a clear 2 or 3 ppm will by rule of microbiology reveal its cycle status in 24 hrs


regarding his confusion and question regarding low level .25 reading off a mature tank, that's the simplest call of them all.

api ammonia is always wrong at that level, .25 means zero.

see how confusing that makes things! api misreads or misrepresentations are the #1 stumbling block in new tank cycle threads, don't rely on api.

Google this and count number of confirming pages in the thousands

" api ammonia gives constant false .25 reading"

this is chiefly why the rules for new tank cycling must be clarified, and tested, this is becoming a powerful cycling reference thread due to this speed of input keep it going team
 

bigdeb

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Hey guys I am really new here but I have a question and I hope you will give me grace from my lack of knowledge. My tank has cycled for six weeks. Went through diatom etc. started with live rocks and sand. Used water from an established tank. Just put in clean up crew and two pj's. They don't want to eat. The shop sold me pellets. I turn off the pump and drop the food. The pj's do not try to eat. Any wisdom for me?
 

brandon429

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The best way to help them is to buy some live blackworms or brine shrimp, any moving live food and try that, they w most likely eat it and thats what w have to be used until a stand in can be found. most w take frozen feeds like cyclopeeze if not pellet food
 

JasReef

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Too bad this thread slowed down. I believe there is a lot of misinformation about what a cycle looks like in today's aquarium. For example, It seems like a little while back bottled bacteria was just snake oil and now it seems to gained popularity. I don't know if they work. Someone might say they work but maybe they had live rock too and forgot to mention that or someone might say it didn't work but didn't mention they forgot to turn on the heater because that's embarrassing but important variable.

I have a question about the ammonia. What is the 2 parts per ppm equivalent to? Is it just a projected bioload maximum equal to X amount of fish waste? I just wonder what sets that standard?

People like brandon429 and Randy make this site such a great place for dialogue. Thanks
 

brandon429

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great question

that 2ppm is a reading we'd never see in a normal reef sans rotting fish or a super old cruddy sandbed that was disturbed deeply. its a purposeful overage set at a clear measurable level (how is .25 working for everyone HA) and the goal is to then be able to get a reading of zero in 24 hours

2ppm is also preferable to 8ppm for example because people will use a digestion test to assess what coralline covered live rocks can do, and too much free ammonia kills the little guys we paid $ for on this kind of rock. 2 ppm is high enough to see a clear rise and decline, indicating bacteria working, and low enough to hopefully preserve some living things on the LR during the digestion test. many w use 4-5ppm and typical live rocks can prob digest up to that much or a little more to true zero in 24 hours.
 
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