Well this is no good... (warning! wp-25 discussion ahead)

Dsdaley77

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i'm listening to first hand experience from people who own them on the forum i pointed out. when they bought them and THEY FAILED a short time later or didn't come with all parts REQUIRED to FUNCTION, or didn't function properly and made noise or didn't spin in certain modes. Hello. Earth to you. It's not a "forum full of ecotech supporters". I KNOW that ecotech's costs are more than jaebo's. That's obvious, to anyone with a slight hold on how the business works. How is a powerhead a new idea? It's not, it's just a poorly constructed chinese model at a lower price point. Not some new game changer in the reef industry. it's basically a powerful koralia. the people on that forum OWNED the pump, some of them broke, some of them didn't, some people didn't like their performance. there's a good swath of people on there who have posted their own first hand experience about these pumps. i'm simply showing you where and how to find this information and you act like it's some crazy conspiracy. next you'll tell me obama's the one behind the cease and decist letter because he doesn't want conservative members of the reef community buying cheap chinese products.

Personally I don't think the letters exist or if they do some 14 year old kid that's upset he just spent his whole years allowance on an MP40 wrote them to, well, act his age lol.

Regardless, I can't wait to get this pump in my hands to play with it.

And these are no Koralia ;)


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totion

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I love reading this topic. I have seen a wp40 running on a 90 gallon tank and I was impressed. Can't wait to get my wp25 for my 29 gallon tank. It will replace 3 Koralia evolution 600s.

Haters will hate, and it provides a very entertaining read for me.

Never had anything but Koralias so far so I can't say how tunze or ecotech work. One day I may be able to afford one to try it out lol.

I tend to side on the side of logic and I'm not an expert but I don't think at this point tunze has much they can do besides scare tactics.

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RainbowReef

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i own 2 mp10s, 2 mp40s, 2 mp60s, 2 wp40s and waiting on another5 wp40 and 2 wp25. they are a nice pump for the money, and they certainly fill my niche for death spot minimizer, but they are by no means the same as a ECOTECH. I feel that together they make a very suitable combo to achieve the random flow and direct sectional flow i am looking for in my all SPS tank.

I would by no means be replacing my mp's with wp's. i made the mistake of selling off one of the mo40s i owned when they arrived and i ended up purchasing another to replace it. If your tank is lacking flow and you dont have the coin to drop on the higher end models it will serve you wonders. If your used to running ecotechs then i think youll initially like their wave potential but soon realize where they are lacking. if i run just my jaebos then i have a ton of sand collection on my chalices and rock nems where as i kick on my mp40s and all the sand dissapears in the undertows.

to each their own. never used tunze so i cant comment there
 

bhazard451

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i'm listening to first hand experience from people who own them on the forum i pointed out. when they bought them and THEY FAILED a short time later or didn't come with all parts REQUIRED to FUNCTION, or didn't function properly and made noise or didn't spin in certain modes. Hello. Earth to you. It's not a "forum full of ecotech supporters". I KNOW that ecotech's costs are more than jaebo's. That's obvious, to anyone with a slight hold on how the business works. How is a powerhead a new idea? It's not, it's just a poorly constructed chinese model at a lower price point. Not some new game changer in the reef industry. it's basically a powerful koralia. the people on that forum OWNED the pump, some of them broke, some of them didn't, some people didn't like their performance. there's a good swath of people on there who have posted their own first hand experience about these pumps. i'm simply showing you where and how to find this information and you act like it's some crazy conspiracy. next you'll tell me obama's the one behind the cease and decist letter because he doesn't want conservative members of the reef community buying cheap chinese products.

You do not own one, so you have no actual idea or comparison to base anything off of. None of your spouting off is based on any facts whatsoever or actual firsthand experience of both pumps, which I have provided.

It is not a "powerful Koralia". I have owned those too, and yourself? The WP-40 is not poorly constructed either. Unlike you, I have opened up the pump multiple times, and saw for myself that they have no issues with wiring whatsoever. I was one of the first to figure out and modify the pump internally for an Apex before the Reef Angel cable came out. What's your experience with the pump again?

You're just mad and can't handle facts, so you have to make up garbage bs blanket statements to feel better about yourself. You brought in politics, nationalism, conspiracy theories, Obama, but no ACTUAL information of your experience with these Jebao pumps, which is none. The performance is better than the MP40, at 1/4th the price, and I'm hitting 4+ months with no issues on mine.

I'll just sit here and keep pointing out the difference between facts and your BS blanket assumptions until your head explodes.

Just bought a WP-25 now instead of an MP10 to play around with. U mad? Are you going to say my house will catch on fire, because you have nothing relevant to add?
 

bucksfan1976

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Ok maybe we all should just slow down and stop trying to argue, there are Ecotech fans, Tunze fans and now Jabeo fans. This is the wonderful world of saltwater aquarium equipment. Its been argued with other things time and time again with LEDs, T5, Halides you name it, its been argued about. The simple fact of the matter is everyone is going to have their favorite. I personally own 3 Tunze 6025 and a WP40 and couldnt be happier. I have seen tests on a tank with ecotech products vs the Jebao product. The tank was a 110 gallon tank, the test was to see which would make the largest wave, a single MP40 in wave mode made the corals sway very nicely and gave the tank a wave of aprox 1 inch, the WP-40 actually knocked down rock work at the opposite end of the tank , the wave almost threw water out of the tank, and there were 3 witnesses to it. Here is one thing I will say about jebao. People complained about noise and jebao was quick to produce new mounting bushings to help quiet it down. People talked about how the pump was to powerful so they made a adjustable power supply. It boils down to what each person likes. Im happy that I have less in my 4 power heads then the cost of a single MP40. Now it might bite me in the butt in the long run if the Jebao Pump fails however even if I purchase a 2nd one Im still under the cost of a mp40.
 
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CoryC

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Those aren't facts either, it's all anedoctal. you're the one trying to make it something it isnt. i don't have to own one to have held one and seen it used and had to take it apart when it quit running. Your points are anecdotal, so are mine, there's no difference in the type of information we have presented. you just like to think yours is in some way more valid because you actually wasted your money on the pump and i didnt?
 

bhazard451

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Those aren't facts either, it's all anedoctal. you're the one trying to make it something it isnt. i don't have to own one to have held one and seen it used and had to take it apart when it quit running. Your points are anecdotal, so are mine, there's no difference in the type of information we have presented. you just like to think yours is in some way more valid because you actually wasted your money on the pump and i didnt?

You continue to label the pumps with assumptions and opinion, with nothing to back it up first hand. It's like a biased agenda you have against them. Spreading false and misleading information is not anecdotal. "Wasted your money" is one you just used right there. Hooking up a multimeter to measure voltage, checking soldering joints, and measuring wire gauge is not anecdotal. I should assume then, that I wasted my money buying MP40s according to your logic, because many more failures of Vortechs are documented, and that is how you are presenting your argument (which is thin to begin with)?

I have no issues with any of the pump brands, but I will keep pointing out misleading information that is being given to try to sway other reefers away, and provide valid info to the contrary.

Without actually testing and comparing in tank, your opinion means very little over people who have.
 

CoryC

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it's not false or misleading. i pointed you to independent accounts from people that experienced failures in the early days of this pump. the thing about that is, vortechs will be fixed, those pumps will not. just because it's not my tank i'm observing or testing or me that bought the pump doesn't mean that i have any less valid points on it. considering i've observed the exact same things. it's not false and misleading that they break, don't come with all the parts to run, or have issues in different modes, as i have pointed out where and how to find that information. it is you that chooses to ignore it, citing some kind of crazy ecotech conspiracy. i have nothing to lose or gain, just showing people where to find first hand accounts of how these pumps run, and not my own biased opinion. so, unlike having anything vested in these pumps, i'd consider my opinion far less biased than your own.
 

Dsdaley77

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it's not false or misleading. i pointed you to independent accounts from people that experienced failures in the early days of this pump. the thing about that is, vortechs will be fixed, those pumps will not. just because it's not my tank i'm observing or testing or me that bought the pump doesn't mean that i have any less valid points on it. considering i've observed the exact same things. it's not false and misleading that they break, don't come with all the parts to run, or have issues in different modes, as i have pointed out where and how to find that information. it is you that chooses to ignore it, citing some kind of crazy ecotech conspiracy. i have nothing to lose or gain, just showing people where to find first hand accounts of how these pumps run, and not my own biased opinion. so, unlike having anything vested in these pumps, i'd consider my opinion far less biased than your own.

One thing that needs to be taken I to account is that the pumps you are referring to in your post "early days" are not even the same pump anymore, Jebao as Bhazard pointed out has corrected some of the issues you keep rambling over and over. They are dead points. They people you speak of bought early "beta testing" models basically and should have waited if they wanted bug free equipment. It's life ;)


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bhazard451

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it's not false or misleading. i pointed you to independent accounts from people that experienced failures in the early days of this pump. the thing about that is, vortechs will be fixed, those pumps will not. just because it's not my tank i'm observing or testing or me that bought the pump doesn't mean that i have any less valid points on it. considering i've observed the exact same things. it's not false and misleading that they break, don't come with all the parts to run, or have issues in different modes, as i have pointed out where and how to find that information. it is you that chooses to ignore it, citing some kind of crazy ecotech conspiracy. i have nothing to lose or gain, just showing people where to find first hand accounts of how these pumps run, and not my own biased opinion. so, unlike having anything vested in these pumps, i'd consider my opinion far less biased than your own.

The same can be said for any pump. They all experience failures, and you can find failures of Tunze and Vortech as well. Your point? If anything, these have less failures mentioned from reefers than Koralias in the time that they've been on the market. I and many others have not experienced any.

Who said they won't be fixed? Fish Street has been very nice to work with, and sent new rubber impellers for free just in case I wanted to use them.

You're not biased, but you are in a WP-25 thread bashing them, with no experience of the product, and I'm biased? lol

Anytime you want to do an actual comparison without blowing smoke between different pumps, I'll provide all the info you desire.
 

CoryC

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The comparisons have been done. It pushes the exact amount of water as the tunze in question. You have no idea of their failure rate because for one its only been a few months and two you only want to look at positive reviews. It seems you joined this forum around the time all this started. How do we not know you're a damage control agent for jaebo?
 

CoryC

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It's hardly bug free equipment. People that have purchased newer models are getting the same failures. They haven't fixed every issue and nothing can fix how it's manufactured. It's inherent.

The whole reason I'm in this discussion is because people have falsely claimed they are super solid pump that doesn't fail and that it blows other pumps out of the water. It's a $100 pump that moves a decent amount of water, and last about as long as a $100 pump should
 
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bhazard451

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It's hardly bug free equipment. People that have purchased newer models are getting the same failures. They haven't fixed every issue and nothing can fix how it's manufactured. It's inherent.

The whole reason I'm in this discussion is because people have falsely claimed they are super solid pump that doesn't fail and that it blows other pumps out of the water. It's a $100 pump that moves a decent amount of water, and last about as long as a $100 pump should

Now I'm with Jebao? lol. You really don't have anything useful to say, at all.



The comparisons have been done. It pushes the exact amount of water as the tunze in question. You have no idea of their failure rate because for one its only been a few months and two you only want to look at positive reviews. It seems you joined this forum around the time all this started. How do we not know you're a damage control agent for jaebo?

Now I'm with Jebao? lol. You really don't have anything useful or truthful to say, at all, outside of pure speculation and assumptions, and nothing more. Not one thing you say is correct. It's all negative assumptions, because you have nothing to contribute.
 

Engloid

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Those aren't facts either, it's all anedoctal. you're the one trying to make it something it isnt. i don't have to own one to have held one and seen it used and had to take it apart when it quit running. Your points are anecdotal, so are mine, there's no difference in the type of information we have presented. you just like to think yours is in some way more valid because you actually wasted your money on the pump and i didnt?
I'm glad I "wasted" my money on one. It's working flawlessly, even the light sensor. I'm also glad I didn't "waste" much more money on something that cost much more. In fact, I have considering "wasting" more money on another one. :bigsmile:

BTW, how do you measure the flow of these powerheads anyway? With a typical return pump, you just put a hose on it, start it pumping and calculate how quickly it fills a bucket or something...just volume/time. With a powerhead that disperses flow, how can you test it? Put it in a pipe with the same ID as the pump diameter? That would likely change the flow characteristics. I really doubt that ANY company's specs are very accurate, so you can't really go off of them for anything more than a reference within the same company's products. For example, you can pretty well bet money that a Korallia 2 is not going to put out hat a Korallia 4 does.


Did you read my earlier post about "customer service" and giving away free products in order to keep complaints off the internet? Apparently, Jebao isn't doing that (or a good job of it), but how do you know the other companies don't? Giving free products to silence complaints can easily give the impression that the product has much fewer failures than it really does.

For example..I did some consulting/training for a company that was having some products made in China. They had a 300% profit margin, even after shipping to their warehouse in the US. They also had a lot of failures. With that profit margin, they could give you two of them, brand new, and still make a nice profit. It was well worth giving something away to keep bad comments off the net. However, it was eating into the profits enough to make it worth sending me to china, paying all my expenses, for three weeks, in an effort to reduce the costs of giving away these products.

Likewise, as it has been mentioned already, Tunze and/or Ecotech will often give parts or stuff away after the warranty has expired...so we know they aren't above giving things away in order to keep a good reputation. You can have the best warranty in the world, but it doesn't mean the product is better. It only means that the company will take care of it when it fails.

Another example...look at Craftsman screwdrivers. It used to be very rare to break one. they truly were top quality tools. As time went on, they must have analyzed cost of manufacture and replacement rates. The tools are crappy, compared to what they used to be. Odds are, they saved enough manufacturing cost that they are able to sell a crappier product, and replace it more often...and still make more profits.

What I'm getting at is that you really have no firm evidence or testing results that support claims that either is good or bad...only individual cases, which represent a very small percentage of any of these products. Sure, if somebody has ONE, and it fails, they will say they are junk. If somebody has ONE and it works perfectly, they will say it is great. It's only natural to do that ...but it's still just ONE item and the person is basing their opinion on that, not the entire amount that is sold of the product. I mean...if your Tunze had failed right out of the box, you probably wouldn't say they were so great either. We all have opinions, but none of us have the total numbers of an item sold and total number of items that fail, in order to really get firm and factual statistics and make the determination that one or the other is best.

All that said, I do think that Jebao really needs to step up their customer (product) support. If they want to build a name, and continue in this business, allowing a product to fail soon after purchase and not helping the customer is just bad business....and will stop MANY potential customers from buying their product. If, like other manufacturers, they back the product, go out of their way to back it when it fails, they have the potential to greatly increase their market share.
 

Dsdaley77

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So then by that standard, Koralia's should only run for 5-6 months. That's funny. When you say cruddy manufacturing, what do you mean? Can you be more specific? Wires are wires and plastic is plastic is in not? I'm confused I guess ;)


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bhazard451

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So then by that standard, Koralia's should only run for 5-6 months. That's funny. When you say cruddy manufacturing, what do you mean? Can you be more specific? Wires are wires and plastic is plastic is in not? I'm confused I guess ;)


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The kid hasn't seen the internals of any of the pumps, yet is somehow an expert on how they were all manufactured. He's out of his league and he knows it. It's just sad at this point.
 

bct15

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So then by that standard, Koralia's should only run for 5-6 months. That's funny. When you say cruddy manufacturing, what do you mean? Can you be more specific? Wires are wires and plastic is plastic is in not? I'm confused I guess ;)


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Plastic is not just plastic, all plastics are not the same...see my post (post # 111) for more information. All aluminums are not the same, all steels are not the same... The public falsely generalizes materials as the same that are not.



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Engloid

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Plastic is not just plastic, all plastics are not the same...see my post (post # 111) for more information. All aluminums are not the same, all steels are not the same... The public falsely generalizes materials as the same that are not.

You are correct...but you likely will agree that this is not some type of expensive stuff and only a custom-tailored plastic will do it. The quality of plastic on this part is probably not very important to the quality of the part and its performance. I don't know plastics, as in the chemistry of it...but I know enough to know there's probably millions of ways to mix the ingredients.

That said, there may be differences in the quality of the coils, tolerances and such that have a lot to do with the performance of this pump....things that you can't see looking at the part.
 

bct15

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You are correct...but you likely will agree that this is not some type of expensive stuff and only a custom-tailored plastic will do it. The quality of plastic on this part is probably not very important to the quality of the part and its performance. I don't know plastics, as in the chemistry of it...but I know enough to know there's probably millions of ways to mix the ingredients.

That said, there may be differences in the quality of the coils, tolerances and such that have a lot to do with the performance of this pump....things that you can't see looking at the part.

Your second paragraph is exactly what makes the quality of Chinese parts come into question. They don't use build standards like the US and other parts of the world, which typically results in lower quality components and tolerancing, which may lead to a lower useful life of the product but brigs consumer cost way down. That does not mean that every single product coming out of China is junk, they are just not built to the same standards as other country components but a decent product can come from china. The quality of every component heavily depends on the quality of the material used to build each component and the materials suitableness for the task.

This thread is going nowhere, I still have no idea why everybody wants I compare their jaebo to an mp40...it is a tunze copy and doesn't really resemble an mp40 in anyway from assembly to performance, they are totally different. There is aspects to each powerhead that make each one more appealling to different aquarists. Each one is better than the other in its own right, it just depends on what is important to the buyer. Anything that is mass produced will have failures, that is the real reason for a warranty...to find the manufacturing defects to get the proper product in the hands of the consumer and let it live out its useful life. Jaebo has failures, ecotech has failures, tunze has failures, everything has failures that typically when under warranty are not due to a bad product but some issue in assembly (usually due to a component). Anybody who says that these pumps are the greatest thing ever and do not fail are flat out lieing, there are dozens if not hundreds of reports of people's jaebo failing on RC. Does that make the jaebo a piece of junk, no...it might be a sign of bad quality control of the failure to purchase rate is high but I don't know what that is (and neither does most other people). People talking abou profit margins and overpricing of each company are blowin smoke out of their butts...I'm willing to bet the manufacturing cost of this jaebo is less then $8 so they have a large markup as well... It is dumb to talk bad about any company because it is trying to make money.

This thread has gotten pointless and is going in circles...like I said earlier each pump is better than the other in respective right. Everybody needs to stop their bickering, I even got caught up in it for a minute but after spectating i realized it was pointless.


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CoryC

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All that said, I do think that Jebao really needs to step up their customer (product) support. If they want to build a name, and continue in this business, allowing a product to fail soon after purchase and not helping the customer is just bad business....and will stop MANY potential customers from buying their product. If, like other manufacturers, they back the product, go out of their way to back it when it fails, they have the potential to greatly increase their market share.

This. Exactly what i've been driving at. If you wanna roll the dice with a pump that may or may not work properly and take that chance without any customer support if something goes wrong, then go ahead. But if you keep shelling out hundreds to replace complete pumps after one fails, then you may have just bought the more expensive pump with better customer service to begin with. My point is in retrospect it doesn't really save you any money.

As far as how they determine flow, it's easy arithmetic. Size of the propeller and the displacement of the propeller for X revolutions per second and how many rps the motor is capable of producing. Just like with boat propellers/motors and the calculation of the top speed in knots.

The personal attacks I could do without. It's not accomplishing anything. The anecdotal information in threads i have pointed to, and the anecdotal information from a couple people in this thread are of no more value than another. It's just silly. Clearly biohazard can't discuss this without trying to shout down opposition views with nonsensical tales of ecotech supporters spamming a board or that his identical anecdotal opinions are of far more value than someone else's anecdotal opinions. I was simply trying to show for people that have used these pumps with success, there are also a number of people that have reported failures. Failures + Poor Customer Service = Spending more (and therefore wasting) money.
 
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