What am I dealing with?

[lagatbezan]

Got a Raccoon butterfly and a bicolor angel for about 4 weeks in qt now.
they got a formalin dip when first came in, went through 12 days of TTM (every 2 days using 3 sets of each equipment) and two rounds of prazipro between the transfers.
The Raccoon has been flashing frequently and yawning since first acquired and wasn't eating for the first two weeks. The angel was flashing a little but it stopped after the prazipro. I performed a fresh water dip two weeks ago and another one 5 days ago on the butterfly and didnt notice anything falling of. However after the second dip, the next day it had a really bad red patche on one of its side with raised scales as well as being extremely skinny from not eating for two weeks. Not sure exactly if bacterial or uronema, I separated the two and started treating the butterfly with a cocktail of Furan 2, Kanaplex and metronidazole in the water while the angel just got metro as a precaution. I was also able to find some black worms which it started eating.
The infection is much better and healing but the butterfly is still scratching, yawning and rapid gill movement. scratching is sometimes really frequently and some days nothing at all so not sure what to do next. I was gonna give it another formaling bath, but wanted to wait till the infection healed before doing so. hope i'm not dealing with some supper flukes that are immune to formalin, prazi and metro.
Could it be something else irritating it? I have a small powerhead in the tank with a venturi. I kinda noticed when I increase the bubbles, it tends to irritate it more and flashing tends to increase. could it also be irritated by the meds currently in the tank?
Sorry for the long post, but any help would be appreciate it.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I'm wondering if it's maybe still irritated from the infection, or you are dealing with suppressed velvet. If it were prazi resistant flukes, you should have seen something in the freshwater dip.

I think I would finish out the antibiotic/metro treatment in both tanks (at least 10 days) and then see how they do in a non-medicated tank. If the flashing continues, you might consider treatment with either copper or CP.

Calling in the bigwigs for a second opinion…
@Humblefish @melypr1985 @4FordFamily

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm wondering if it's maybe still irritated from the infection, or you are dealing with suppressed velvet. If it were prazi resistant flukes, you should have seen something in the freshwater dip.

I think I would finish out the antibiotic/metro treatment in both tanks (at least 10 days) and then see how they do in a non-medicated tank. If the flashing continues, you might consider treatment with either copper or CP.

Calling in the bigwigs for a second opinion…
@Humblefish @melypr1985 @4FordFamily

I agree 100%.

To add to the possible velvet -- it can hide within the gills without any obvious spots. Fish with this strain tend to lose color in blotchiness, as well.

 

[lagatbezan]

Thank you for the quick replies.
I was under the impression that velvet is a super fast killer and being that they were in a small qt for 4 weeks I would suspect some spots showing up of some sort or them not making it. I had a 180g crash within 48 hours losing about 20 fish due to velvet 10 years ago when I used to not qt! it was heart breaking.
Its hard to really see the color of the butterfly bc the furan2 causes a greenish tint to the water but the rapid gill movement and breathing started when the antibiotic treatment started 5 days ago.
I have cupramine on hand but hate using it specially on butterflies and angels.
Currently only the butterfly is being treated with antibiotics. do you think I should treat the angel as well even though there are no symptoms or is just the metro is enough?

 

[4FordFamily]

4 weeks velvet can lay dormant for that amount of time roughly if the fish were kept subtherapeutic levels of copper.

But more than likely it's not the culprit.

When you added these meds, did you increase oxygen saturation with an air stone or pointing powerhead at surface? Antibiotics in particular can reduce oxygen in the water and could be the culprit for heavy breathing as well.

 

[lagatbezan]

yeah no copper used with them while in qt with me. The powerhead is moving water and there is surface agitation with it as well as a venturi blasting small bubbles into the water. not sure why but I sense when I turn the venturi for more bubbles in the tank I sense the irritation gets more and the flashing increases. Definitely feel like something bothering him on the side of his mouth that he is rubbing against the PVC in the tank. so far it has had 5 days treatment with the furan2, metro and kanaplex mix.
Would you guys recommend swapping out the metro with general cure to have the prazi in the mix as well or is that gonna be too much?

 

[4FordFamily]

yeah no copper used with them while in qt with me. The powerhead is moving water and there is surface agitation with it as well as a venturi blasting small bubbles into the water. not sure why but I sense when I turn the venturi for more bubbles in the tank I sense the irritation gets more and the flashing increases. Definitely feel like something bothering him on the side of his mouth that he is rubbing against the PVC in the tank. so far it has had 5 days treatment with the furan2, metro and kanaplex mix.
Would you guys recommend swapping out the metro with general cure to have the prazi in the mix as well or is that gonna be too much?

I mean low levels of copper prior to you receiving them. I'll wait on @Humblefish or @melypr1985 about adding prazi.

 

[melypr1985]

flashing and scratching, breathing rapidly, and getting infections? This spells velvet to me especially considering there were no flukes present during any of the FW dips and assuming TTM was done correctly without cross contamination. Finish out the antibiotics for now but keep a close eye on both him and the angel. If one has it, they both do. Watch for swimming into the flow of the powerhead and hiding excessively, loss of color, loss of appetite. If this were my fish, I'd be seriously considering copper right about now.

 

[lagatbezan]

Thanks for the reply.
Im actually seeing the opposite behavior from both fish. Both are really active, swimming normal and having great appetite. The butterfly is starting to put on some weight eating 3-4 a day and the infection is almost completely healed. Just can't seem to get rid of the flashing
Is it possible there were flukes and there were to small to notice in the fw dips for I missed it?
Ttm was done to the T and treated like a hospital surgery toom lol.
If it is velvet, at what point would is start to get worst or show other symptoms do you think? I would imagine in a 10g qt it would be spread much more rapidly.

 

[ngoodermuth]

There's a video on this link that shows what flukes look like in a freshwater dip:

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Freshwater-Dip.248898/

 

[Humblefish]

When the butterfly scratches, is he targeting the gill area? The yawning and rapid gill movement indicates something is bothering him inside his gills.

went through 12 days of TTM (every 2 days using 3 sets of each equipment) and two rounds of prazipro between the transfers.

^^ This is a little confusing. Doing a transfer every 2 days is fine, but TTM is still supposed to last 13 days in total.

 

[lagatbezan]

When the butterfly scratches, is he targeting the gill area? The yawning and rapid gill movement indicates something is bothering him inside his gills.



^^ This is a little confusing. Doing a transfer every 2 days is fine, but TTM is still supposed to last 13 days in total.

Hi Humblefish,
No the scratching is usually targeted at the base of its mouth on the side and not the actual gills. Had no rapid gill movement until the treatment with the antibiotic cocktail started.
I did a total of 6 transfers:
Thursday 8/1 Fish arrived, Formalin dip (30 min) and went into new tank
Sun 8/27 second transfer and 1st round of Prazipro
Tue 8/29 third transfer
Thur 8/31 4th transfer
Sat 9/2 5th transfer and 2nd round of Prazipro
Mon 9/4 6 transfer into a 30g observation tank.
6 transfers total. If you count the first day, then yes you are right 13 days total.

wed 9/6 fist FW dip on the butterfly 5 min = nothing observed.
Sat 9/9 Dosed 3rd round of prazi
Monday 9/11 FW dip for 5 min = nothing observed and moved into new tank.
Tues 9/13 Fish had a large red marking with raised scales
Wed 9/14 moved to new fresh tank and started treatment with Kanaplex, Furan2 and seachem metronidazole 100%.
Fish was not eating anything I was feeding for over two weeks until I was able to get my hands on some live black worms on 9/14 which its been chowing down since.
His appetite is great and the "infection is almost fully healed with just a scar still present. I was gonna do the treatment for another 4 days a total of 10 days.

There's a video on this link that shows what flukes look like in a freshwater dip:

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Freshwater-Dip.248898/

I have seen this video and I got nothing like that during the dips at all. Is it possible that there were not that many flukes on the fish because of the prazipro treatments and only a few fell and I missed them? are they usually that large?

 

[melypr1985]

I have seen this video and I got nothing like that during the dips at all. Is it possible that there were not that many flukes on the fish because of the prazipro treatments and only a few fell and I missed them? are they usually that large?

In my experience, they are usually that large. There are some exceptions such as flukes that have just hatched might be a bit smaller, but I think you would have seen them if you were looking for them.

 

[lagatbezan]

Update:
I treated the fish for 7 days with kanaplex, metro and furan2 for the infection it had on its side. I ran out of furan2 and continued with metro and kanaplex for another 2 days. The infection seems much better but it's still there and I can see it healing and looks like dead skin hanging from it.
The fish was still randomly flashing on its face/mouth. I stopped the antibiotic treatment and started general cure treatment and redosed 48 hours latter per instructions. It's been 24 hours since the second dose and the fish is no longer flashing ( none that I saw) but has developed red blotches on its mouth and I think a little by the base of its fins. It's still eating but not as aggressively and it's not that active and tends to stay in one place mostly.
I just transferred it to a brand new tank and started erythromycin treatment in case I'm dealing with septicemia or secondary infection from possible flukes that fell off.
I have attached a video. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
@Humblefish
@melypr1985 @4FordFamily @ngoodermuth

 

[Humblefish]

With antibiotics, you really need to stay the course for 10-14 days without interruption. If you end treatment prematurely, that can allow the infection to come back.

I would try this antiseptic bath to get him back on track: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/acriflavine.282887/

And then go back to Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex in the QT.

 

[melypr1985]

With antibiotics, you really need to stay the course for 10-14 days without interruption. If you end treatment prematurely, that can allow the infection to come back.

I would try this antiseptic bath to get him back on track: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/acriflavine.282887/

And then go back to Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex in the QT.

^^ agreed 100%

 

[lagatbezan]

yeah, unfortunately I ran out of furan2 7 days into treatment. So today the red markings have gotten better on the face but still there. Should I continue the current treatment of erythromycin for another 3 days? more 10 Days? Mix with kanaplex and metro?
I dont have any acriflavine on hand and it will be a few days till I get it, but can get furan2 and start the cocktail treatment if recommended.
you guys see anything else in the video that shows any concern?
The only thing that I can get him to eat is live black worms after two weeks of hunger strike. The little guy is not even looking at anything else I put in the tank. I feed him 3 times a day.
I really appreciate all the advice and helps. Thank you everyone!
this little guy getting so much attention from me this past couple of weeks my wife is getting jealous LOL.

 

[Humblefish]

@lagatbezan The only antibiotic I have experience mixing erythromycin with is minocycline aka Maracyn 2. So, I would either stay the course with that combo or go back to dosing Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex. Erythromycin may be enough by itself to knock this out if it's a gram positive infection.

Also, performing an acriflavine bath every 48 hours would probably be helpful right now.

 

[lagatbezan]

Okay so the butterfly has been in qt for about 6 weeks now. gone through full TTM and been treated with 3 rounds of prazipro when first came in spread out about 5-7 days, then I treated for the infection with a full antibiotic cocktail and the infection is almost completely healed but the scratching and yawning still persists.
Two weeks ago I did a formalin bath for 45 min and the next day I started General cure treatment. Re-dosed 7 days latter which was last week and the fish didnt take the 2nd treatment very well. Stopped eating and was not active at all and had really fast rapid breathing staying in the corner of the tank. I did a water change 24 hours latter and after 48 hours it was doing well and eating again. No flashing until today 7 days latter.
So now I'm stumped. another round of GC? formalin dip? just not sure anymore. Poor fish has had every drug and med thrown at her for the past 6 weeks.
I know I can do another FW dip (both previous dips I saw nothing fall off), but reading the post on flukes @Humblefish states that freshwater dip is ineffective against gill flukes. Not sure where to go from here. Only thing I haven't tried is going hypo.
Can't seem to win the war

 

[Humblefish]

@lagatbezan It sounds like every possible disease has been treated for except velvet. The FW dips & formalin bath you have done may just be keeping velvet at bay; time for copper or CP to completely knock it out. At least that's what I would do in this situation.

And for the record, a FW dip will force many of the gill flukes off a fish. It just cannot be counted on to achieve 100% eradication; that is what Prazipro or API General Cure is for.