What are the real risks of running high Nitrates and Phosphates?

[jda]

For corals, when your nitrate and phosphate get higher, you are just limited by the set of corals that will do well and thrive. The higher you go, the more limited you are. Nobody really knows the limits for all corals and there is no guide to follow. You also can limit some inverts with higher nitrate and phosphate levels. I mostly do acropora and there are some that would not really care about no3 of 100 and po4 of 1.0... and some that kind get irritated if you get your no3 to 5 and po4 to .1.

If you REALLY pay attention to what Ross is saying in different places, you will see that he indicates that in that tank, he was not able to keep all of what he could keep with lower levels. He has even written about it on this board.

One good thing about really high nitrate and phosphate is that it can kill dinos, sometimes cyano and often hair algae. They came come back for people who lower their levels.

Most fish do not seem to care about higher levels.

It is really hard to grow coralline with higher nitrate and phosphate levels.

As for low, don't use media or chemicals and it is hard to get too low with natural things. Anoxic bacteria keep my no3 about .1, but I do feed a lot and have much nitrogen available in ammonia/ammonium which is more important than no3 levels. po4 of 1-3 ppb is not growth limiting, IME. As for dinos, I have none at these levels. I would need a week and many pages to explain my thoughts on dinos, but my tanks are very diverse with other things on surfaces so I don't have any sterile spots for dinos to take hold.

 

[Pankney72]

Funny you mention this… I just hit the “screw it” point on my tank. Fully stocked 125 mixed reef. Acros, euphillia, mushrooms and Nems all growing great. Zero algae with minimal clean up crew. Only run a filter pad and a skimmer. (With religious water changes)

For months now nitrate is consistently 20, PO4 .2

the one time I ran carbon and phosban it was a major gut punch to my reef. Almost lost some LPS.

I finally just looked at my tank, shrugged my shoulders and said if everyone is happy so am I.

I’m also ripping it down to upgrade to a swanky 250 on the 21st so watch that build thread

 

[McPuff]

It is really hard to grow coralline with higher nitrate and phosphate levels.

I can tell you this is definitely not true. My nitrates were at 225 and phosphate was 0.15 and I have coralline coming off in sheets. Nutrient levels are on the decline (N - 125, P - 0.09) but N is still quite high. Funny thing is that I really have no nuisance algae in the display.

One problem I have faced: low pH mixed with high nutrients. This can lead to some nasty problems and I've lost several colonies because of it. Ultimate cause for me was twofold: basement tank (higher CO2) and Calcium reactor (further lower pH of water). Just removed the calcium reactor and am switching to GHL Director and dosing.

I won't be chasing numbers when it comes to nitrate/phosphate... again, just watch the corals. I don't think I'm going to be in danger of running ULNS at any point (especially with sand) and the corals will thank me for it. Has always been easier for me to keep corals happy with higher vs lower nutrients.

 

[undermind]

I can tell you this is definitely not true. My nitrates were at 225 and phosphate was 0.15 and I have coralline coming off in sheets. Nutrient levels are on the decline (N - 125, P - 0.09) but N is still quite high. Funny thing is that I really have no nuisance algae in the display.

One problem I have faced: low pH mixed with high nutrients. This can lead to some nasty problems and I've lost several colonies because of it. Ultimate cause for me was twofold: basement tank (higher CO2) and Calcium reactor (further lower pH of water). Just removed the calcium reactor and am switching to GHL Director and dosing.

I won't be chasing numbers when it comes to nitrate/phosphate... again, just watch the corals. I don't think I'm going to be in danger of running ULNS at any point (especially with sand) and the corals will thank me for it. Has always been easier for me to keep corals happy with higher vs lower nutrients.

Where does your alkalinity land?

And how do you check your nitrate? That's such an extreme ratio. What's your nitrate source?

 

[ReefGeezer]

Over the years, I've been all over the board where nutrient management plans are concerned. ULNS, high nutrients, picking numbers to hit, and even not worrying about it. I killed stuff and grew a lot of algae and bacteria using all of them.

Now I think I've settled on a plan that works for me. I'm trying to focus less on numbers and instead focusing of all the nutrient pathways. I still have a ways to go, but the tank has responded well so far. I think now, my husbandry tasks will revolve around keeping those nutrient pathways balanced. However, I think N & P monitoring might one of the tools I use to measure my husbandry's effectiveness and to ensure lack of inorganic N or P is not limiting other nutrient pathways.

 

[Mark Gray]

I have run extremely high NO3 and PO4 levels, most soft corals are ok with this fish too. The corals that are effected most are the corals that use alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium. PO4 binds to ALK making it much more difficult for the corals to use.

 

[bruno3047]

I thought about this a lot. When we increase our nitrate and phosphate levels and our SPS/LPS respond with enhanced coloration, how do we know that that’s a good thing other than that it’s pleasing to the eye? How do we know that the coral isn’t being stressed, and that’s why it has such intense coloration? And then one day, the coral starts declining and we have no idea why? The water that these corals come from, tropical reef water has near zero nitrates and near zero phosphates. The appearance of nitrates and phosphates in these waters is considered pollution, and is usually followed by a massive coral die-off. Just some food for thought.

 

[bruno3047]

Here’s some research that I did on this. I think most reefers will find it extremely interesting.

Explore This Coral Reef Before it Disappears

An underwater investigation of coral bleaching in the South Pacific

time.com

 

[Toob]

Here’s some research that I did on this. I think most reefers will find it extremely interesting.

Explore This Coral Reef Before it Disappears

An underwater investigation of coral bleaching in the South Pacific

time.com

Are you the author or the diver? I think this is a fascinating topic, though sad. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Most noticeable is my red goni. He seems to prefer low phosphate. He is almost closed up today with .14 phosphate measured today. Couple torches half closed too. I get it down to .05 range and everything perks back up. Strangely the yellow goni which is much larger does not get affected unless my phosphate really climbs to over .2.

I believe this to be true of many goni. I failed for a year to get a single goni frag to open in my system running po4 North of .2

Since employing a slow reduction via gfo on a 200g system which brought it down under .1 , I gave had no issue in keeping this coral.

 

[bruno3047]

Are you the author or the diver? I think this is a fascinating topic, though sad. Thanks for sharing.

I’m neither. I found this piece while researching my idea that elevated nitrate and phosphate levels in reef tanks, while eliciting an appealing enhancement in coral coloration, is actually a way of slowly killing them. These divers discovered that to be a fact.

 

[McPuff]

Where does your alkalinity land?

And how do you check your nitrate? That's such an extreme ratio. What's your nitrate source?

ALK is generally above 8. I send in water samples to ATI (ICP) so I do trust those numbers. Other than going without a fuge for far too long, I don't do any nitrate dosing. Levels have come down a lot though.

 

[jmanzella]

I've been a reef newbie with my 190 gal mixed reef for almost 2 years now. Always trying to follow articles, videos and forums directions to try to keep 0.05 to 0.1 ppm Phosphate and 5 to 10ppm Nitrate.
While dealing with a nasty dino bloom I increased feeding and reduced water changes to drive Phosphate up between 0.2 - 0.26 and Nitrates from 20 to 30ppm.
Dinos are receeding, corals are better than ever, fish look happy and I see no algae besides the one that I wipe from the glas 2-3 times a week.

My question is. What are the real risks of high Nitrates and Phosphates and how much is really too much?

There seems to be a disconnect between what people recommend and what people actually have. Every time I check the water from the frags I buy (to try to steal the secret sauce from successful vendors and reef keepers) the results are pretty high. And I frequently hear "oh my nutrients are very high now but I try to keep them at xxx".
I have the feeling that many successful reefers run higher than recommend levels. So i want to understand what are the actual risks, what should be looking out for. Is it just risk of getting algae or will I be poisoning my dear creatures and at what level?

I hope long time successful reefers read this and can chime in. Pics of tanks and nutrient levels would be fantastic!

I’m not sure if I am posting correctly. I am not very familiar with the forum. My nitrates have been high for months. I do water changes weekly. I have a protein skimmer. I bought a roller max. I have adder an external sump with additional media. I tried growing Cheao but it not doing well. i’m cut my feeding down to once a day. I feed a variety of frozen and dry pellets and nori. Can anyone give me any advice?
thanks everyone jmanzella

 

[131696]

Low nutrients are not caused by Dino's ,the wrong ratio is they cause of it..
and high nitrates and phosphates are ok , Stability is key Stability

 

[Nano sapiens]

Here’s some research that I did on this. I think most reefers will find it extremely interesting.

Explore This Coral Reef Before it Disappears

An underwater investigation of coral bleaching in the South Pacific

time.com

We have to differentiate between coral that has normal bright solid coloration (along with a full compliment of zooxanthellae) and coral that produces this uber-bright coloration highlighted in the video.

In the first scenario, the coral is healthy and can maintain good coloration indefinitely as long as conditions remain to it's liking and we don't push the lighting intensity beyond what it can properly cope with. But in the second scenario, the coral is producing very bright protective pigmentation in a last ditch effort to create a protective environment for zooxnthellae that try to repopulate (hopefully before the coral runs out of it's limited energy reserves).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Low nutrients are not caused by Dino's ,the wrong ratio is they cause of it..
and high nitrates and phosphates are ok , Stability is key Stability

Can you clarify what you mean by the "wrong ratio".

My understanding is that low nutrients are a risk for dinos, regardless of the ratio.

 

[131696]

Can you clarify what you mean by the "wrong ratio".

My understanding is that low nutrients are a risk for dinos, regardless of the ratio.

1to 10 basic 1 part phos.10 part nitrate, you won't get Dino's with ratio right if I'm wrong so are the professionals at reef conventions That say this.

 

[131696]

1to 10 basic 1 part phos.10 part nitrate, you won't get Dino's with ratio right if I'm wrong so are the professionals at reef conventions That say this.

Lots of people have low nutrients tanks no Dino's, that is not the reason ,instability,wrong ratio,bad maintenance causes Dino's.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1to 10 basic 1 part phos.10 part nitrate, you won't get Dino's with ratio right if I'm wrong so are the professionals at reef conventions That say this.

IMO, there's no evidence to support that assertion.

IMO, nutrient ratios are the run away trendy thing in reefing that is truly of no value with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

IMO, if you have 0.0000000001 ppm phosphate and 0.000000001 ppm nitrate, you are at risk for dinos, despite having your perfect ratio.

Why is everything here stated with IMO before it? Because there's no testing of any kind to say what is true or not with respect to risk factors for dinos. Anyone claiming otherwise either has secret info, or is stretching the available facts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lots of people have low nutrients tanks no Dino's, that is not the reason ,instability,wrong ratio,bad maintenance causes Dino's.

A strong assertion that I believe is wrong and has zero supporting evidence.

You made the claim, what is the basis? Someone told you this at a convention?

Lots of people smoke and do not die of lung cancer. Does that mean smoking is not a risk factor for lung cancer? Of course not. That's what it means to be a risk factor.