What are the root causes of Cyano?

[Brew12]

I think the ratio between orthophosphate on one side and total phosphate (orthoposphate + polyphosphates + organic phosphates) tells something about how quickly phosphate circles in the system. The higher the proportion of polyphosphates + organic phosphates the faster the phosphates are cycling and the higher the proportion of phosphate that is always cycling in organisms.

When thinking about metabolism and cycling of phosphates you must forget the N cycle. Phosphate and N are completely different. Phosphate gets neither reduced nor oxidized. Phosphate forms bonds with sugars like ribose or desoxyribose to form RNA and DNA. In organisms phosphate is bound to other phosphates with polyphosphate bonds, for example ADP + P --> ATP. This is the way organisms store and transport energy to make use of the stored energy in other reactions. In metabolism there is always some orthophosphate that is split from ATP and not yet bound again to ADP. So it may leak from the cell. That is why there must be some phosphate in the water to compensate for the leakage with new uptake. In contrast there is never much free ammonium in the metabolism. Ammonium at once gets bound to glutamate (amino acid with one amino group) to form glutamin (AA with two amino groups) and from then on it is always bound to organic acids to form amino acids or to enzyms during transfer of the amino group until ammonium is excreted through the gills, after for example the organic acid of the aminoacid has gotten oxidized in catabolism to make use of the stored energy.

Particulate phosphates from the fish feces are for example calciumphosphate from fish bone particles in dry foods or from crustacean exoskeltons in frozen food. Also incompletely digested algae and other feedstuff may form particulate phosphate. Bacteria and microalgae with their phosphate stores are also particulate phosphate.

The predominance of these other forms of phosphate in some systems with low orthophosphate concentrations is an important difference to, and in my eyes a good argument against simple orthophosphate dosage.

I think mat formation in cyanobacteria is a strategy to cover, protect and make use of phosphate stores in substrate and rocks.

Thanks, that helps! I'll need to digest this for a bit but I may have more questions.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I know this ratio is of limited practical use, just interesting.

I always got similar ratios as given above although following the test procedure thoroughly. I hope my testing was right. To me the P concentrations found with ICP-OES frequently seem very low because it is total P. One case has been reported to me where ICP-OES results where even lower than test kit results which should be impossible if the test kit doesn´t show high concentrations.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

My opinion whether to disturb or not to disturb cyanos is: Disturb them but not too frequently. Wait until the cyanos have formed massive mats and there has formed some precipitates and some sediment under the cyano mat. Then remove them completely with the precipitates and sediments formed. If you do not wait until they have formed mats and sediments too much cyanos are still adhered to the substrate and rock and complete (or nearly so) removal is very difficult.

This is the most effective way to disturb and remove cyanos in my experience.

That is of course completely opposite of what Lasse is saying, and I had thought you as well, because the cyano creates and encouges its own little micro climate to take a foot hold.

 

[Cory]

Im pretty sure cyanos caused by organics.

I put in some phosban, cyano dissapeared. Gfo removes organics.

I read someone started using ozone and the next day all the cyano was gone. Ozone changes organics.

Cyano grows on sand beds first usally. Lots of organics there.

Cyano grows in low flow areas. Lots of organics settle in low flown areas.

 

[Brew12]

Im pretty sure cyanos caused by organics.

I put in some phosban, cyano dissapeared. Gfo removes organics.

I read someone started using ozone and the next day all the cyano was gone. Ozone changes organics.

Cyano grows on sand beds first usally. Lots of organics there.

Cyano grows in low flow areas. Lots of organics settle in low flown areas.

I think you are using the term organics when you should be using nutrients. As an example, GFO removes non organic phosphates. Phosphate and Nitrate are both non organic forms of nutrients.

 

[Lasse]

That is of course completely opposite of what Lasse is saying, and I had thought you as well, because the cyano creates and encouges its own little micro climate to take a foot hold.

Yes they do – and why on earth should you let them do that? Building the mats make them get nutrients for reproduction (I do not know the doubling time for these Cyanobacteria but I´m rather sure its lesser the 24 hours - we are probably talking about a doubling time of 1 - 2 hours when they have formed the mat and get unlimited nutrients and traces metals. If the mats consist of sugar - it’s also energy storage for the reproduction (and it is asexual) Then I have had these mats – I have disturbing and sucking up the mats every evening if I could see any mats. Off cause – if there is no mat – off cause you can´t disturb them or suck them up. I have also change the environment (read nutrient levels)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cory]

I think you are using the term organics when you should be using nutrients. As an example, GFO removes non organic phosphates. Phosphate and Nitrate are both non organic forms of nutrients.

Gfo removes po4 and organics like activated carbon removes organics. But i never read a post of carbon getting rid of cyano. So it must be a specific organic gfo removes i assume.

Perhaps nutrients is too broad of a term. Ime its definitely something in organics that its using. Maybe when it covers an area, that area becomes anoxic and a certain bacteria grow and release something cyano is using thus fueling its growth. Perhaps its h2s?

 

[Cory]

Here is a google search that the link wont work. But it says something about h2s for cyanobacteria.

Sulphide-dependent anoxygenic photosynthesis in the cyanobacteriumOscillatoria limnetica
Y Cohen, BB Jørgensen, E PADAN, M Shilo - Nature, 1975 - Springer
… from water, it has been demonstrated that photosystem I of certain cyanobacteria can function …We have demonstrated anoxygenic photosynthesis in a cyanobacterium Oscillatoria limnetica, also capable of … which was isolated from the anaerobic H2S rich hypolimnion layer of the

 

[Lasse]

I think mat formation in cyanobacteria is a strategy to cover, protect and make use of phosphate stores in substrate and rocks.

Not only to get P - also to get N or trace metals. When the mats is formed - you will have a self playing piano according to macro nutrients and micro nutrients.

Particular and organic phosphates are rather stable and will not by themselves transfers to orthophosphate IMO. You stated earlier that it need a certain enzyme in order to do that. If different organism is able to make this for their own consumption - that is one thing - but we all the time get orthophosphate in the water column (read unused orthophosphate). My question is therefore - where comes the orthophosphate in our water column from if it not is from the bacteria driven mineralisation process of organic matter?

You mentioned ICP-OES. I suppose that every firm that doing these testes use 0.45 microns filters – otherwise you can´t translate the result (comes as P – atoms) to the PO4 (read orthophosphate) we can measure. With help of Hanna as an example.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

Gfo removes po4

Except that PO4 isn't organic. It is non organic.

 

[Cory]

Except that PO4 isn't organic. It is non organic.

Yes of course. But it also removes organics and some metals. Its possible it could remove enough of a certain micro element that it becomes limiting.

 

[Lasse]

Except that PO4 isn't organic. It is non organic.

Not in order to be picky but to not create misunderstandings and for the books - the correct term is inorganic.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

Not in order to be picky but to not create misunderstandings and for the books - the correct term is inorganic.

Sincerely Lasse

You are absolutely correct! Thanks!

 

[jantje]

This is an outstanding thread, a lot of information.
Thanks to all contributers special Lasse and Hans Werner.
But finding the rootcause seems te be not easy, in fact as i read and hear is it even a bit contradictory for NO3.
In holland there is a growing group who keep the nitrate in levels up to 5 ppm,...raising NO3 is even an succesfully advise if there is a problem with cyano.

Myself, 650 ltr tank, mainly sps
Po4 0.020 to 0.05 according to Hanna ULR
N03 below 1 according to red sea colorimeter pro.

If i dont dose No3 i notice that my acans and other lps have a hard time and that Cyano appear at some spots on the sand bed and on algea that is dying.

ohhh and i am a "strange"reefer as i use a different setup for nitrification in my tank.
I use Kaldness K1 as biofilm carrier, did made some FISH picture to identify and discovered beside standard Nitrosomas and bacter also anammox.
as said, i need to dose NO3 due to the denitrification in the lower part of the biofilm.

 

[Jose Mayo]

In all maritime coastal areas and even inland, by the action of waves and winds, aerosols with marine microalgae, bacteria and cyanobacteria can be transported far and wide, coast to within ... if they find an aquarium with the necessary conditions, they will multiply and progress. Even in aquariums made in sterile condition, and with all the usual care by the aquarist, they may arise. The defense is in balance. It is correct to say that every aquarium has cyanobacteria, in some they predominate by the imbalance of the environment, in others because the load and virulence of the contracted strain is naturally prevalent. For the latter, the control can hardly be achieved only with measures of hygiene or reduction of nutrients.

Airborne algae and cyanobacteria: occurrence and related health effects.

It is not always the fault of the aquarist that everything in the aquarium happens.

Best Regards

 

[Lasse]

ohhh and i am a "strange"reefer as i use a different setup for nitrification in my tank.
I use Kaldness K1 as biofilm carrier, did made some FISH picture to identify and discovered beside standard Nitrosomas and bacter also anammox.
as said, i need to dose NO3 due to the denitrification in the lower part of the biofilm.

I´m using Kaldness filter media in a indoor catfish farm. We use K1 first but in the last production line we change to K3 - I was sceptic in the beginning but I must admit – it’s better for nitrification!

Interesting to hear that you have establish the anammox process – are you sure – it will in that case be the first time it has been shown in aquaria (as I know) even if I have been rather sure that it exist even in aquaria

And I´m also convinced that a good nitrification rate is important because I do not like free ammonia ions in my reef (yes – I know I and Hans Werner has different standpoints here ) because it will favour bad algae IMO. I have a small aquarium – I use a filter mattress – I do not need tthe Battleship Bismarck in my aquaria – it’s enough with a little T-boat.

But I have an idea of an automatic feeder for my filtrating animals and that idea include K1

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jantje]

Lasse,
i builded my first MBBR for a koi POND with K1 about 15 years ago. At that time K1 wasnt available for the private market.
later i worked together with Evolution Aqua in the UK with their first commercial MBBR called Nexus.
My K1 was already in use for several years when we did used it do identify the biofilm at the university at Delft with Dr M van Loosdrecht...it was back in 2001.
A few years later i did send again samples and discovered anammox on it, those carriers i used to bring them slowly into marine water and used them in my sump.
Worked perfect, never have seen Nitrate higher then 1 ppm....mostly it is 0 as i need to add nitrate for my lps
Maybe i will try to send again some K1 to delft to see if they can detect anammox after i placed it in my Tank

oh, on a lot of K1 i see inside beside biofilm a lot more activities and life
And from that point of view i think it will give more benefits for marine tank sumps

about ammonia, i used RO water which has been used to "absorb" ammonia...i used it also as N source and i can tell you...i will do it never again as it is almost not to control and i got a full underwater algea garden in return

kind regards

jan

 

[bh750]

I've been dealing with both Cyano and Dinos pretty much nonstop for years now. I get rid of one only to have the other arise. I have a powerful scope to confirm this. I So I guess I just haven't found the right balance yet.

This has been such a great thread I've been following along, but I have to admit much of it as way above my understanding. I see there's lots of debate and the OP may never be answered completely. But would it be possible for someone to summarize things in layman's terms? Would be great to have dumbed down explanations of the intelligent dialog here. Can someone do this? I'd be happy to act as the layman in the translation process.

PS - Also, has anyone ever thought of applying the principles of an ATS to Cyano? Could we create a dedicated area to foster Cyano growth so its not in the display?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I've been dealing with both Cyano and Dinos pretty much nonstop for years now. I get rid of one only to have the other arise. I have a powerful scope to confirm this. I So I guess I just haven't found the right balance yet.

This has been such a great thread I've been following along, but I have to admit much of it as way above my understanding. I see there's lots of debate and the OP may never be answered completely. But would it be possible for someone to summarize things in layman's terms? Would be great to have dumbed down explanations of the intelligent dialog here. Can someone do this? I'd be happy to act as the layman in the translation process.

PS - Also, has anyone ever thought of applying the principles of an ATS to Cyano? Could we create a dedicated area to foster Cyano growth so its not in the display?

Layman’s terms.
Keep the tank clean , and feed the fish healthfully.
Avoid foods that more directly feed Bactria.
Introduce a diverse number or organisms to compete with unwanted ones , corraline , corals , macroalgaes etc.

 

[bh750]

Layman’s terms.
Keep the tank clean , and feed the fish healthfully.
Avoid foods that more directly feed Bactria.
Introduce a diverse number or organisms to compete with unwanted ones , corraline , corals , macroalgaes etc.

Thank you!!! Ok some questions...

1) Keep the tank clean - how do we know if the tank is "clean"? Based on keeping measurements of Nitrate and Phosphate below certain levels?

2) Feed the fish healthfully - is this in terms of amount/frequency? ie - dont starve them, dont overfeed?

3) Avoid foods that more directly feed Bactria - ok getting over my head now . Can you expand?

4) Introduce a diverse number or organisms to compete with unwanted ones , corraline , corals , macroalgaes - so adding coral, promoting coralline alage, macroalgae, even things like pods?


Expanding on #1 above what about recommended levels Nitrate (NO3) and Phosphate (PO4). This is the most confusing part to me as I've read such an array of what works. For me, personally, the Dinos appear when I go too clean, ie no nitrates or phosphates. I've also learned this isn't good for corals. But I've also learned that going too high on these two causes alage and, I think, Cyano to get out of control?