What Brand Vitamins and/or Garlic Do You Soak Food In
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Jerel
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laga77
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http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2352039 . http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2213228 it contains a link to another site, but please let the info get out there. Selcon is useless in my opinion also. Stopped using it over a year ago and I have 51 fish in 6 tanks.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2352039 . http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2213228 it contains a link to another site, but please let the info get out there. Selcon is useless in my opinion also. Stopped using it over a year ago and I have 51 fish in 6 tanks.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
A lot of the arguments presented in reefcentral in that thread are about total/ high percentage replacement with garlic. The articles they use for reference are not about supplementation.
I do not supplement with garlic, so I'm not trying to prove one way or the other. I'm looking at this from a research standpoint and the research isn't there to support the garlic supplementation damages the liver.
Let's go over the 5 references the Reef Central guy is using to say garlic supplementation is bad in point one. In a few instances he gives incomplete citations, so I have fixed those in in bold under how he lists them, so you can go look them up if you choose. Otherwise they can be hard to locate.
RC Guy's Reference # 1:
AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD, (1993) Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar). Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73
CORRECTED CITATION:
J.G. Bell, J.R. Dick, A.H. McVicar,, J.R. Sargent, K.D. Thompson. Dietary sunflower, linseed and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar). Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73
This reference is about replacing 100% of the fish oil with Sunflower oil and linseed oil.
RC Guy's Reference # 2:
AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.(1991)High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion. J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72
This reference is about replacing 100% of the fish oil with sunflower oil.
RC Guy's Reference # 3:
J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004.
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences
CORRECTED CITATION: Bell, J. Gordon, John McEvoy, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell, and John R. Sargent. "Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism." The Journal of Nutrition 131.5 (2001)1535.
It’s about replacing FO with different amounts of Rapeseed oil. I’m going to post a little image of the abstract instead of typing it all. Note the last line. The article goes on to say there were some notable changes in fat amounts found in the muscle when the amount of substitution of Rapeseed was greater than 50%.
RC Guy's Reference # 4:
J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus) Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277
It's about replacing FO with 100% Linseed oil and Olive Oil
RC Guy's Reference # 5:
SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.
CORRECTED CITTION: Seierstad, S., Poppe, T., Koppang, E., Svindland, A., Rosenlund, G., Frøyland, L., & Larsen, S. (2005). Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L.. Journal of Fish Diseases, 28(11)
This study was about replacing fish oil with 100% Rapeseed Oil and 50% Rapeseed Oil
As you can see... these aren't even about garlic and they are not about supplementation. That's not even enough positively correlating material to support anything about terrestrial oil supplementation, let alone specifically garlic.
I do not supplement with garlic, so I'm not trying to prove one way or the other. I'm looking at this from a research standpoint and the research isn't there to support the garlic supplementation damages the liver.
Let's go over the 5 references the Reef Central guy is using to say garlic supplementation is bad in point one. In a few instances he gives incomplete citations, so I have fixed those in in bold under how he lists them, so you can go look them up if you choose. Otherwise they can be hard to locate.
RC Guy's Reference # 1:
AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD, (1993) Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar). Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73
CORRECTED CITATION:
J.G. Bell, J.R. Dick, A.H. McVicar,, J.R. Sargent, K.D. Thompson. Dietary sunflower, linseed and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar). Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73
This reference is about replacing 100% of the fish oil with Sunflower oil and linseed oil.
RC Guy's Reference # 2:
AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.(1991)High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion. J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72
This reference is about replacing 100% of the fish oil with sunflower oil.
RC Guy's Reference # 3:
J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004.
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences
CORRECTED CITATION: Bell, J. Gordon, John McEvoy, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell, and John R. Sargent. "Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism." The Journal of Nutrition 131.5 (2001)1535.
It’s about replacing FO with different amounts of Rapeseed oil. I’m going to post a little image of the abstract instead of typing it all. Note the last line. The article goes on to say there were some notable changes in fat amounts found in the muscle when the amount of substitution of Rapeseed was greater than 50%.
RC Guy's Reference # 4:
J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus) Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277
It's about replacing FO with 100% Linseed oil and Olive Oil
RC Guy's Reference # 5:
SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.
CORRECTED CITTION: Seierstad, S., Poppe, T., Koppang, E., Svindland, A., Rosenlund, G., Frøyland, L., & Larsen, S. (2005). Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L.. Journal of Fish Diseases, 28(11)
This study was about replacing fish oil with 100% Rapeseed Oil and 50% Rapeseed Oil
As you can see... these aren't even about garlic and they are not about supplementation. That's not even enough positively correlating material to support anything about terrestrial oil supplementation, let alone specifically garlic.
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Lionfish Lair
Renee
If you want to do some reading specifically about garlic and supplementation, here's a example of a few articles I have run across. I haven't found any that stated it was "bad". Again, I do not use garlic, so I'm not trying to convince anyone to use it, just that you may want to look twice at the topic of it being bad.
"Militz, T., Southgate, P., Carton, A., & Hutson, K. (2013). Dietary supplementation of garlic ( Allium sativum ) to prevent monogenean infection in aquaculture. Aquaculture, 408, 95-99.
Lee, J., & Gao, Y. (2012). Review of the Application of Garlic, Allium sativum , in Aquaculture. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society, 43(4),
Militz, T., Southgate, P., Carton, A., & Hutson, K. (2014). Efficacy of garlic ( A llium sativum ) extract applied as a therapeutic immersion treatment for N eobenedenia sp. management in aquaculture. Journal of Fish Diseases, 37(5), 451-461.
Guo, J., Kuo, C., Hong, J., Chou, R., Lee, Y., & Chen, T. (2015). The effects of garlic-supplemented diets on antibacterial activities against Photobacterium damselae subsp. piscicida and Streptococcus iniae and on growth in Cobia, Rachycentron canadum. Aquaculture, 435, 111-115.
(2015). Efficacy of an Extract from Garlic, Allium sativum , Against Infection with the Furunculosis Bacterium, Aeromonas salmonicida , in Rainbow Trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society, 46(5), 569-569.
Schram, E., Pedrero, Z., Cámara, C., Van Der Heul, J., & Luten, J. (2008). Enrichment of African catfish with functional selenium originating from garlic. Aquaculture Research, 39(8),
Mohebbi, A., Nematollahi, A., Dorcheh, E., & Asad, F. (2012). Influence of dietary garlic ( A llium sativum ) on the antioxidative status of rainbow trout ( O ncorhynchus mykiss ). Aquaculture Research, 43(8), 1184-1193.
Talpur, A., & Ikhwanuddin, M. (2012). Dietary effects of garlic ( Allium sativum ) on haemato-immunological parameters, survival, growth, and disease resistance against Vibrio harveyi infection in Asian sea bass, Lates calcarifer (Bloch). Aquaculture, 364, 6-12.
Colorni, A., Avtalion, R., Knibb, W., Berger, E., Colorni, B., & Timan, B. (1998). Histopathology of sea bass ( Dicentrarchus labrax ) experimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with streptomycin and garlic ( Allium sativum ) extract. Aquaculture, 160(1), 1-17."
"Militz, T., Southgate, P., Carton, A., & Hutson, K. (2013). Dietary supplementation of garlic ( Allium sativum ) to prevent monogenean infection in aquaculture. Aquaculture, 408, 95-99.
Lee, J., & Gao, Y. (2012). Review of the Application of Garlic, Allium sativum , in Aquaculture. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society, 43(4),
Militz, T., Southgate, P., Carton, A., & Hutson, K. (2014). Efficacy of garlic ( A llium sativum ) extract applied as a therapeutic immersion treatment for N eobenedenia sp. management in aquaculture. Journal of Fish Diseases, 37(5), 451-461.
Guo, J., Kuo, C., Hong, J., Chou, R., Lee, Y., & Chen, T. (2015). The effects of garlic-supplemented diets on antibacterial activities against Photobacterium damselae subsp. piscicida and Streptococcus iniae and on growth in Cobia, Rachycentron canadum. Aquaculture, 435, 111-115.
(2015). Efficacy of an Extract from Garlic, Allium sativum , Against Infection with the Furunculosis Bacterium, Aeromonas salmonicida , in Rainbow Trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society, 46(5), 569-569.
Schram, E., Pedrero, Z., Cámara, C., Van Der Heul, J., & Luten, J. (2008). Enrichment of African catfish with functional selenium originating from garlic. Aquaculture Research, 39(8),
Mohebbi, A., Nematollahi, A., Dorcheh, E., & Asad, F. (2012). Influence of dietary garlic ( A llium sativum ) on the antioxidative status of rainbow trout ( O ncorhynchus mykiss ). Aquaculture Research, 43(8), 1184-1193.
Talpur, A., & Ikhwanuddin, M. (2012). Dietary effects of garlic ( Allium sativum ) on haemato-immunological parameters, survival, growth, and disease resistance against Vibrio harveyi infection in Asian sea bass, Lates calcarifer (Bloch). Aquaculture, 364, 6-12.
Colorni, A., Avtalion, R., Knibb, W., Berger, E., Colorni, B., & Timan, B. (1998). Histopathology of sea bass ( Dicentrarchus labrax ) experimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with streptomycin and garlic ( Allium sativum ) extract. Aquaculture, 160(1), 1-17."
Damon
Well-Known Member
I mix up selcon,kz amino stabil fish,metroplex, and seachem garlic for attraction.. I mix this up with freeze dried jumbo krill, hikari jumbo mysis, and actually some seaweed extreme pellets.. Freeze, and break off pieces for their normal diet..
laga77
Active Member
Yes, it is bad, from the Humaguy post........"So why not use garlic in marine fish diets.
1 Long term heart and liver lesions
Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.
AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993"..... Garlic may be effective against bacterial infections in farmed fish, it will kill them in the long run. Added protection against infection is needed in aquaculture because of the poor conditions the fish are kept in. In a well kept tank, this level is just not needed. But with farmed fish, you kill them after two years so it doesn't matter much any way. Most of my 51 fish are older than two years.
1 Long term heart and liver lesions
Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.
AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993"..... Garlic may be effective against bacterial infections in farmed fish, it will kill them in the long run. Added protection against infection is needed in aquaculture because of the poor conditions the fish are kept in. In a well kept tank, this level is just not needed. But with farmed fish, you kill them after two years so it doesn't matter much any way. Most of my 51 fish are older than two years.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
You didn't read what I said above? I mean that in a polite way, but his listed articles do not support the point he is trying to make. I have read them in their entirety.
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ca1ore
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Just feed your fish a varied diet, with appropriate frequency, and all these unscientific additives and supplements are uneccessary. I still see laughable claims that garlic cures ich. It doesn't.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
You're right, it doesn't cure Ich. Im not sure what you mean by "unscientific additives", though.
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