What brands of alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium are you using?

[klp]

I would like to hear from Randy Holmes-Farley and Lou Ekus for your thoughts.

This thought provoking article left me a bit confused. If I understood the video, Balling stated that the sodium chloride would build up which is how we measure salinity. I have questions.
1. Without water changes does the sodium chloride gradually build up in relation to other chemicals if 2 part is being used?
2. Does this throw off specific gravity measurements in any way?
3. If the sodium chloride builds up without water changes then would the specific gravity gradually increase when using 2 part?
a. Is that why Balling uses a 3 part with part C being a salt change using no sodium chloride?
4. Is there an potential harm from having a gradually increasing sodium chloride "imbalance" per the balling video?
5. Would any potential aquarium imbalance of sodium chloride in itself necessitate water changes?
6. Also what about Triton where few water changes are indicated. When doing a water change would it make sense to use Tropic Marin part C to help with sodium chloride imbalances?
7. Salt mixes try to apportion their chemicals to mimic NSW. If there is a sodium chloride imbalance than would it not gradually leave me with a greater imbalance proportionally in other chemicals as sodium chloride would be throwing off the readings assuming it builds up? In other words I might read 1.026 in the aquarium when the other chemicals present would be like if I mixed it at 1.022 due to sodium chloride build up creating an imbalance chemically shown in the aquarium when I measure specific gravity.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Lou
Thanks for the quick reply. Good to see you value the importance of starting with high quality raw material. ME also buys its material from around the world. I have never seen a different terminology other than : Reagent,USP, Tech (which is misleading), and the rest which is Industrial grade. Can you share the German terminology for grading not used throughout the rest of the world? Can you also answer why this grading or quality level is not stated on your label? At ME if we pay extra for better quality so we want our users to know that? Also if you add other things to your products, do you feel you should disclose them on the label?
Thanks
ME

While I appreciate your concern, I'm not sure that this forum is the right place to get into a detailed discussion of one manufacturer questioning another manufacturers labeling decisions. In relation to what we add or components of our products, Tropic Marin makes every effort to list all ingredients in our products. I'm not sure I would class that as "disclosure", just good labeling practice.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would like to hear from Randy Holmes-Farley and Lou Ekus for your thoughts.

This thought provoking article left me a bit confused. If I understood the video, Balling stated that the sodium chloride would build up which is how we measure salinity. I have questions.
1. Without water changes does the sodium chloride gradually build up in relation to other chemicals if 2 part is being used?
2. Does this throw off specific gravity measurements in any way?
3. If the sodium chloride builds up without water changes then would the specific gravity gradually increase when using 2 part?
a. Is that why Balling uses a 3 part with part C being a salt change using no sodium chloride?
4. Is there an potential harm from having a gradually increasing sodium chloride "imbalance" per the balling video?
5. Would any potential aquarium imbalance of sodium chloride in itself necessitate water changes?
6. Also what about Triton where few water changes are indicated. When doing a water change would it make sense to use Tropic Marin part C to help with sodium chloride imbalances?
7. Salt mixes try to apportion their chemicals to mimic NSW. If there is a sodium chloride imbalance than would it not gradually leave me with a greater imbalance proportionally in other chemicals as sodium chloride would be throwing off the readings assuming it builds up? In other words I might read 1.026 in the aquarium when the other chemicals present would be like if I mixed it at 1.022 due to sodium chloride build up creating an imbalance chemically shown in the aquarium when I measure specific gravity.

No, using a two part such as B-ionic there is no buildup of sodium chloride (assuming you maintain salinity).

This is why I am so troubled by Lou's comments. Many people "misunderstand" them.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Are products are made with pharmaceutical grade raw materials. But not necessarily US pharmaceutical grade because our products are all produced in Germany. But in many cases the European pharmaceutical requirements are even more stringent than US.

Sorry, this is a typo. It should say "Our products"

 

[Lou Ekus]

No, using a two part such as B-ionic there is no buildup of sodium chloride (assuming you maintain salinity).

This is why I am so troubled by Lou's comments. Many people "misunderstand" them.

Randy, I don't know the exact chemistry of the B-Ionic product as I do not work for them. But let's take this down to it's essence...Would you agree that if you are adding just calcium chloride as a part A and just sodium bicarbonate as a part B, that it will eventually result in a higher percentage of sodium chloride in relation to the other components of sea water at the same specific gravity?

 

[Lou Ekus]

Sorry, this is a repost, I didn't see it came up on the next page:'

Lou
Thanks for the quick reply. Good to see you value the importance of starting with high quality raw material. ME also buys its material from around the world. I have never seen a different terminology other than : Reagent,USP, Tech (which is misleading), and the rest which is Industrial grade. Can you share the German terminology for grading not used throughout the rest of the world? Can you also answer why this grading or quality level is not stated on your label? At ME if we pay extra for better quality so we want our users to know that? Also if you add other things to your products, do you feel you should disclose them on the label?
Thanks
ME

While I respect and appreciate your concern, I feel that this may not be the proper format for one manufacturer to question another manufacturer's labeling decisions in this kind of detail.

In relation to what is added to our products, Tropic Marin lists all components on our labels. In my opinion this is less of a disclosure and more just good labeling practice.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, I don't know the exact chemistry of the B-Ionic product as I do not work for them. But let's take this down to it's essence...Would you agree that if you are adding just calcium chloride as a part A and just sodium bicarbonate as a part B, that it will eventually result in a higher percentage of sodium chloride in relation to the other components of sea water at the same specific gravity?

Definitely. That is one of two reasons why two parts were designed, even my DIY two part: to avoid this depression in ions such as sulfate, magnesium, potassium, etc., relative to sodium and chloride.

The second reason is to allow simplified dosing to avoid the roller coaster of alk/calcium from independent additions.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Definitely. That is one of two reasons why two parts were designed, even my DIY two part: to avoid this depression in ions such as sulfate, magnesium, potassium, etc., relative to sodium and chloride.

The second reason is to allow simplified dosing to avoid the roller coaster of alk/calcium from independent additions.

Great!
It then really all comes down to exactly what is included in the two part system out of the remaining components of sea water. Anything that is left out, of what I am calling the remaining 70 trace elements will be forced into a lower relative concentration. If ALL remaining components are included, then it will be ionically balanced. Can we both agree on that?
If we can, then it only comes down to finding out how much of what is included in the products. And I can only do that for Tropic Marin, as I don't work for or know the exact chemistry of the others.

Are we good now? No "troubling" posts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When people watch your video and come away thinking two parts cause imbalances and Balling does not, that is troubling, and the post above by klp is a perfect example. I'm not there to set straight every person who comes away thinking there is an ion imbalance problem with two part systems.

As to trace elements, that is far to complicated to treat simply. Some are already elevated, and some deplete in a day or two, and require supplementation. Maintaining NSW ratios of trace elements in a calcium and alk supplement are just tiny ripples on these big ocean waves of change.

For example, iodide depleted entirely in a few days in my tank. The very tiny amount that a two part or Balling would bring in wouldn't even be detectable against this depletion.

So trace element supplement may (or may not) be needed, but Balling as you describe it is certainly not going to prevent that need.

 

[marke]

Lou
I tend to agree with Randy. The video can be misleading. I get asked all the time......does your additives have all the extra stuff? When I ask what they are looking for, they don't know? Its just the extra juice. TMarin calls this 70 trace elements. So people think they need to add a trace product to a pure 2 part. I think adding an off the shelf trace bottle is only going to elevate things like copper, lead, zinc, aluminum, lithium, etc. Adding trace additives is a poor decision. This causes confusion. There has been many articles written about elevated toxic trace metals in salt mixes, and hence in our tanks. Why add more?
This thread began as a what Ca Kh Mg do you like, and it seems to have become a trace element discussion in 2 part and if it has any value. ME believes adding these trace elements which are mostly metals are harmful to humans as well as corals in elevated levels. Most of these are byproducts or impurities in Ca, Kh, Mg Chloride, K,I,etc. We should be discussing the results people are getting using one product or another, and why? I dont think its a trace thing.

 

[Lou Ekus]

When people watch your video and come away thinking two parts cause imbalances and Balling does not, that is troubling, and the post above by klp is a perfect example. I'm not there to set straight every person who comes away thinking there is an ion imbalance problem with two part systems.

As to trace elements, that is far to complicated to treat simply. Some are already elevated, and some deplete in a day or two, and require supplementation. Maintaining NSW ratios of trace elements in a calcium and alk supplement are just tiny ripples on these big ocean waves of change.

For example, iodide depleted entirely in a few days in my tank. The very tiny amount that a two part or Balling would bring in wouldn't even be detectable against this depletion.

So trace element supplement may (or may not) be needed, but Balling as you describe it is certainly not going to prevent that need.

Randy, I hate that this discussion has degraded to this point.

The sodium chloride free sea salt in the part C of the Balling Method is not meant to supplement anything. It's not meant to prevent the need for supplementation. It only goes to balance the sodium chloride created by the parts A&B. All supplementation of trace elements or otherwise (like Mg or iodine) still have to be supplemented separately. I'm not trying to beat a dead sea horse here. Really! I'm just trying to clarify how the Balling Method is applied.

 

[Lou Ekus]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I hope we can sit over a drink one night and have this discussion in a slightly easier way. Maybe one night at MACNA, if you are going? I'm sure we can end up agreeing on this! (our booth is 833)

 

[JimWelsh]

@Randy Holmes-Farley, @JimWelsh

If you look at the PTE in the Ocean of the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute
http://www.mbari.org/science/upper-...roup/periodic-table-of-elements-in-the-ocean/

There are 94 Elements. Some artificial elements are already left off the list like rutherfordium (Rf) and others. The last one of the elements numbered is plutonium (Pu). For Pu no concentration is given, the same for neptunium (Np). Uranium (U) we do not add to the mix. Actinium (Ac) is also radioactive and found in minuscule concentrations in the ocean. We do not add it. The same with radium (Ra) radon (Rn) and polonium (Po). Francium (Fr) and Astatine (At) are not found in the ocean and are also radioactive. Promethium (Pm) is an artificial element that does not exist in nature. 94 less 10 is 84. Then there are the noble gasses that do not form any salts. Radon we already mentioned, helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), crypton (Kr) and xenon (Xe) left. They are only available as gasses so we can´t add them to the salts. 84 less 5 are 79.

We are talking about the minor and trace elements only, so let's subtract the ones we call major like sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, chlorine, sulfur, hydrogen, oxygen and carbon. That 79 minus these 9 resulting in the 70 number I customarily use for the number of trace elements in clean natural sea water, if we leave off the radioactive elements, the noble gasses and artificial elements.

We could certainly argue for a couple of elements being added or subtracted from this list. But I use the 70 number as it makes the most sense to me and, in my opinion, most representative of the actual chemistry as we currently know it. Once again, I hope this clarifies my statements on this.

Lou, thank you for this level of specificity. Now, to my point: Let's take, for example, thorium (Th), then, since it appears to be among the 70 remaining elements. How much thorium do you add to your salt mix? In NSW, it is one of the least concentrated (most trace) of the trace elements. If you are adding it, then how do you know that there isn't already an excess of it, due to its possible presence as a contaminant in other salts used to make up the salt?

OK, I'll stop citing such an easy target -- let's go instead with some more common, but still troubling, elements, such as mercury (Hg), gold (Au), and lead (Pb). How much of these are you adding, and again, how do you know that you do not already have an excess as previously described?

Despite Mark E's respect for pharmaceutical grade chemicals over technical grade, even ACS reagent grade salts frequently have significant amounts of impurities, e.g., ACS reagent grade NaCl is only 99.0% pure. While it is clearly true that the impurities in most salts will still be closely-related common elements, for example that 1% impurity in ACS reagent grade NaCl is most likely almost all KCl, there is still always an unknown amount of other, rarer elements present even in salts that are so pure that it is impractical to make a commercial salt mix from them.

So, my questioning and skepticism about the "70 trace elements" claim is basically threefold:

(1) You claim to be adding all of these elements in order to ensure NSW levels, apparently assuming they would be entirely absent otherwise, so are you, in fact adding all 70 trace elements in NSW concentrations?

(2) I assert that virtually all, or at least the vast majority, of those 70 elements are present as impurities in the major salts used to make the salt mix -- so if your answer to #1 above is fundamentally "yes", then how do you know you are not exacerbating a pre-existing excess of certain elements?

(3) Do you do testing on each large-scale batch for all 70 trace elements to ensure the levels match NSW levels, as you assert that they do?

Don't get my basic position wrong -- I don't think that Tropic Marin products are poor quality. I just think that Tropic Marin uses disingenuous and misleading marketing claims that are designed to confuse and mislead the reefing community. If you are going to claim to be adding "70 trace elements" in such a way as to match NSW levels, then you should be prepared to address this kind of scrutiny of that claim.

 

[marke]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I hope we can sit over a drink one night and have this discussion in a slightly easier way. Maybe one night at MACNA, if you are going? I'm sure we can end up agreeing on this! (our booth is 833)

MACNA is going to outstanding! ME has a booth and will have some give aways! I am going to need that drink your offering Lou.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hi,
please let me introduce myself briefly. My first name ist Hans-Werner and Balling is my family name. I developed the Balling method in a public museum and aquarium in 1994. Since 2001 I am product manager at Tropic Marin in Germany. So please excuse eventual mistakes or incorrectnesses in your language, it is not my mother tongue.
Let me first answer the questions of klp about the Balling method.

The severity of the sodium chloride buildup depends from the complexity of a 2 part method. The most simple 2 part method with just calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate would create a buildup of sodium chloride and a proportional decrease of all other elements like sulfur, potassium, strontium and all other major, minor and trace elements, even if you keep the specific gravity constant. When sodium and chloride are added and not consumed by skeletal growth of corals or other processes it is just a matter of logic to see that there must be a buildup of sodium chloride in the water.

To keep specific gravity constant, no matter whether with a two part method or the Balling method, you have to replace some tank water by R/O water or freshwater, otherwise the specific gravity will increase in time by the addition of the salts when you just keep the water level constant. Since the specific gravity is a sum of all salts, the part that is contributed by sodium chloride will increase when the proportion of sodium chloride in relation to the other salts increases. So also in this respect there is a buildup of sodium chloride, even if you keep specific gravity constant.

If you are not doing any water changes there definitely is a potential harm if using a simple two part method. The consequence of a simple two part method would be that you will put in more and more sodium and chloride ions and by keeping the specific gravity constant taking out more and more of the originial saltwater. In this way you replace more and more of your original complex sea salt mix by simple sodium chloride and after long time you will end up with a nearly pure sodium chloride solution with only traces of the original complex sea salt mix. I think you agree with me that this would destroy your tank. Think of the discussions of let´s say 100 ppm more or less potassium.

Water changes can only moderate the imbalance created by the sodium and chloride addition, it can never completely avoid it. Only the Balling method can completely avoid it. The more water you are changing the smaller the imbalance created by the sodium and chloride addition will be, but it is easy to see that at some point the effords of doing the Balling method with sodium chloride free sea salt will be much smaller than doing frequent and big water changes. So yes, aquarium imbalances of sodium chloride make water changes or the addition of calculated amounts of sodium chloride free sea salt necessary. And yes, if you know the surplus of sodium chloride in your tank exactly after you have done an analysis you can counteract it by adding Part C, the sodium chloride free sea salt.

 

[Hans-Werner]

To answer the question of Jim Welsh. We added 100 % of all trace elements some time ago and it already worked very well. Making the same assumptions as you we only add a proportion of the normal sea water concentration of most trace elements now, usually between 30 and 75%. Only the trace elements that are consumed by the organisms in the reef tanks are still added by 100% since they are depleted anyway.

In the case of iodine Randy is right but for many other trace elements the same is not true. For some essential trace elements (trace elements of vital importance to organisms) there is only a small consumption like e. g. for molybdenum. I agree with him that a good sea salt mix is only one prerequisite for the running of a reef tank, it should be complemented by a well balanced and well calculated trace element addition. This is why I calculated and published a method of trace element addition only a short time after publishing the Balling method in 1995 and 1996. Assuming that the most severe depletion of trace elements in a reef tank with fast growing SPS is created by the skeletal growth of the scleractinians I calculated it from the analyses of skeletons of corals and calcareous algae that where available to me at that time. You can find an article about this theme here.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Randy, I have just read your discussion with Lou. How will you add sulfate with a two part method? You can´t add it to the calcium solution since calcium sulfate would be precipitated. If you add it to the sodium bicarbonate solution you have to add at least some sodium sulfate. Besides the sodium added as bicarbonate/carbonate you add additional sodium as sulfate now. This additional sodium supply again must be balanced by all the other elements. This makes the salt freight of this kind of 2 part method much higher and the method much less efficient. So I have to ask, is it really that difficult to add 3 parts instead of 2 parts to have a method that is easy and efficient? If you add magnesium sulfate with a third solution you also have a 3 part method but still without the minor and trace elements.

 

[jgvergo]

Arm and Hammer Baking Soda (baked at 350 for an hour) for Alkalinity; Prestone Driveway Heat (a snow melt product) for Calcium; Mag Flakes (a snow melt product) and Epsom Salt for Magnesium. Other then a short stint with B-Ionic, I've been using it since 2008.

I use BRS. Have you ever calculated the monthly or annual savings over a commercial product?

 

[revhtree]

I would love to discuss this further, but I'm sure I will be accused of trying to "push products" by other members. Please either give me a call in our office at 413-367-0101 or send me an email with your number and a good time to call you to [email protected]. I will be happy to explain the concepts that are basic to the Balling Method and to suggest products that might help in your specific situations.
Our office is closed this coming week, but if you leave a message with your number, I will try to get back to you before we return the following week.

Hi,
please let me introduce myself briefly. My first name ist Hans-Werner and Balling is my family name. I developed the Balling method in a public museum and aquarium in 1994. Since 2001 I am product manager at Tropic Marin in Germany. So please excuse eventual mistakes or incorrectnesses in your language, it is not my mother tongue.
Let me first answer the questions of klp about the Balling method.

The severity of the sodium chloride buildup depends from the complexity of a 2 part method. The most simple 2 part method with just calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate would create a buildup of sodium chloride and a proportional decrease of all other elements like sulfur, potassium, strontium and all other major, minor and trace elements, even if you keep the specific gravity constant. When sodium and chloride are added and not consumed by skeletal growth of corals or other processes it is just a matter of logic to see that there must be a buildup of sodium chloride in the water.

To keep specific gravity constant, no matter whether with a two part method or the Balling method, you have to replace some tank water by R/O water or freshwater, otherwise the specific gravity will increase in time by the addition of the salts when you just keep the water level constant. Since the specific gravity is a sum of all salts, the part that is contributed by sodium chloride will increase when the proportion of sodium chloride in relation to the other salts increases. So also in this respect there is a buildup of sodium chloride, even if you keep specific gravity constant.

If you are not doing any water changes there definitely is a potential harm if using a simple two part method. The consequence of a simple two part method would be that you will put in more and more sodium and chloride ions and by keeping the specific gravity constant taking out more and more of the originial saltwater. In this way you replace more and more of your original complex sea salt mix by simple sodium chloride and after long time you will end up with a nearly pure sodium chloride solution with only traces of the original complex sea salt mix. I think you agree with me that this would destroy your tank. Think of the discussions of let´s say 100 ppm more or less potassium.

Water changes can only moderate the imbalance created by the sodium and chloride addition, it can never completely avoid it. Only the Balling method can completely avoid it. The more water you are changing the smaller the imbalance created by the sodium and chloride addition will be, but it is easy to see that at some point the effords of doing the Balling method with sodium chloride free sea salt will be much smaller than doing frequent and big water changes. So yes, aquarium imbalances of sodium chloride make water changes or the addition of calculated amounts of sodium chloride free sea salt necessary. And yes, if you know the surplus of sodium chloride in your tank exactly after you have done an analysis you can counteract it by adding Part C, the sodium chloride free sea salt.

Nothing to add except welcome to Reef2Reef!

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thank you for the welcome!