What brands of alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium are you using?

[Lou Ekus]

Nothing to add except welcome to Reef2Reef!

Thanks. I have been on Reef2Reef for quite some time now. But as you can tell from my history, I try to contact posters directly rather than make public entries. I have always felt that forums such as this, should be more for the hobbyists and less for manufacturers. But every once in a while, it makes sense to make our comments public. This was one of those times.
Thanks again for the welcome!

 

[Rjramos]

Been using b-ionic 2 part and seachem reef advantage every 2 weeks or so boost Mg, with great results. I am fortunate to have access to great quality NSW offshore here in Miami which I do water changes with 1/month. That includes every trace element I would want and allows me to once a month make any adjustment to a creeping salinity.

 

[redfishbluefish]

I use BRS. Have you ever calculated the monthly or annual savings over a commercial product?

Well a little hard to do because I don't know how many cups are in a 50 pound bag of Preston Driveway Heat or Mag Flakes. If I were to guess, I'd say between $5 to $10 a year for Alk, Calc and Mag. I still have the bags that I purchased in 2008.....and I've given away more than I've made for myself. Each of the Preston and Mag Flakes were less than $20 each for a 50 pound bag. The Baking Soda I get from Sam's Club in an approximate 13 pound bag for around $5. I dose approximately 50 mls each of Alk and Calc per day......and Mag when I need it (hardly ever).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, I have just read your discussion with Lou. How will you add sulfate with a two part method? You can´t add it to the calcium solution since calcium sulfate would be precipitated. If you add it to the sodium bicarbonate solution you have to add at least some sodium sulfate. Besides the sodium added as bicarbonate/carbonate you add additional sodium as sulfate now. This additional sodium supply again must be balanced by all the other elements. This makes the salt freight of this kind of 2 part method much higher and the method much less efficient. So I have to ask, is it really that difficult to add 3 parts instead of 2 parts to have a method that is easy and efficient? If you add magnesium sulfate with a third solution you also have a 3 part method but still without the minor and trace elements.

Yes, a true two part uses sodium sulfate or bisulfate.

There is no problem working out the recipe. There is not a single ingredient that I know of that cannot go in one or the other, and yes, you do need to account for the extra sodium added. A spread sheet is useful for this purpose, and some folks here have them. .We have given recipes on this forum,a nd also other ingredients, such as potassium choride

My DIY that I published years ago and many companies sell the ingredients for is actually 3 parts, with magnesium chloride and sulfate in the third to add the needed sulfate. It is very popular in the US. Perhaps the primary way US reefers dose these day, at least those on line.

 

[klp]

Thank you Hans-Werner for confirming what I suspected.
While the balling method using part C would not add sodium chloride would there still not be a gradual buildup of sodium chloride in the tank? Or does the Balling method depend on the part C water change keep the buildup in check? I would assume the only way to really know would be a test such as Triton. Could you address this issue please.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Both Balling and two/three part methods require the salinity to be periodically reduced, assuming it is not already being reduced more by skimming or some such thing. So while there need not be any imbalance, salinity will rise.

I address that here for a two part:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity


from it:

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.


and this may be of interest in the context of trace elements:

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

 

[marke]

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

Randy Holmes-Farley

WELL SAID

 

[jason2459]

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

Randy Holmes-Farley

WELL SAID

I like to dose those trace elements via Seaweed and other algae based foods.

 

[BummersReef]

dang I need to check out these cheaper options .....
I use Seachem Fusion 1 and 2 (alk and calc)

 

[Lou Ekus]

dang I need to check out these cheaper options .....
I use Seachem Fusion 1 and 2 (alk and calc)

I'm all for saving some money. But please understand that when it comes to chemical raw materials, less expensive usually translates to less refined, less refined usually translates to higher levels of contaminants. I'm not saying this is always the case. But I am saying that, when talking about chemical raw materials, you get what you pay for. If the raw materials company spends more to refine/clean the compound, then they have to charge more for it. If they don't spend that money to refine it, in many cases like ice melt products it doesn't matter, then they can charge less for it....Just a thought.

 

[Sealion]

Ok, new here. What is BRS?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, new here. What is BRS?

Bulk Reef Supply

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thank you Hans-Werner for confirming what I suspected.
While the balling method using part C would not add sodium chloride would there still not be a gradual buildup of sodium chloride in the tank? Or does the Balling method depend on the part C water change keep the buildup in check? I would assume the only way to really know would be a test such as Triton. Could you address this issue please.

When Balling is used as a three part method there is no relative buildup of sodium chloride in the tank. When doing Balling the only remnants are calcium carbonate for skeletal growth, CO2 consumed by the zooxanthellae and complete sea salt. After adjustment of the salinity there is no buildup of sodium chloride. This can be verified by a simple calculation. From the addition of stoichiometric amounts of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate there is sodium chloride left. Sodium chloride and the proper amounts of sodium chloride free sea salt result in complete sea salt. It is just like adding a small amount of complete sea salt. Does this answer your question?

 

[Hans-Werner]

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank.

Randy, 1000 meq is the alkalinity added by 1 mol of sodium bicarbonate, is that correct? With Balling 1 mol of sodium bicarbonate and 1 mol of chloride (1/2 mol calcium chloride) is dissolved in 1 l of R/O water each and will result in the formation of 1 mol or 58.5 grams sodium chloride. So nearly 60 grams of other ions are added only by the formation of sodium chloride from calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate for 1000 meq alkalinity. With Balling this quantity is balanced by the addition of 25 grams of sodium chloride free sea salt resulting in 83.5 grams of complete sea salt. This will increase the salinity of one liter by ca. 73 ppt or add roughly 73 grams of ions since the sodium chloride free sea salt contains hydrated salts.

There is no problem working out the recipe.

I am not very good in calculations with MS Excel. I have calculated the additional salt supply of a two part additive due to the necessity to add sodium sulfate by ca. 30%, so a completely balanced two part additive would add roughly 95 grams of ions each 1000 meq of alkalinity. Can you or someone else with such a spreadsheet confirm this? If I have no mistake somewhere a lower relative addition of salts by a 2 part method means it is not completely balanced.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To be clear, my above calculation was not for a two part using sodium sulfate, but rather my DIY three part using magnesium sulfate, which leads to less sodium chloride added, hence likely the bulk of the difference you note. That was not clear in the article, but is part of why I said " there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. ".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not have a spread sheet available (any others who do, especially those with added potassium chloride and sodium sulfate) please chime in).

I did my ion balance calculations for my DIY three part for sodium, chloride, calcium, magnesium, and potassium here, showing that this recipe balances these ions quite well

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-PartCalcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Note that it has been pointed out correctly that it assumes a little bit too much calcium delivered over time as I did not subtract out the calcium not used because magnesium and strontium are getting into the CaCO3 structure instead of some of the calcium, just as limewater (kalkwasser) will sightly overdose calcium over time. Obviously, magnesium consumption is also an estimate depending on the creatures kept.

 

[ReefingwithO]

I use BRS for Cal, Alk and Magnesium.

I heard about Randy's mix but never been brave enough to try it.

 

[BRB]

Baking soda for alk, kent calcium chloride for cal. Epsom salts for magnesium.

Soon switching to just limewater.

HEY CORY... FOR LIME WATER, DOES THAT ONLY SUPPLEMENT CALCIUM OR DOES THAT SUPPLEMENT ALL 3?

 

[redfishbluefish]

HEY CORY... FOR LIME WATER, DOES THAT ONLY SUPPLEMENT CALCIUM OR DOES THAT SUPPLEMENT ALL 3?

Limewater, also known as kalkwasser or kalk, is calcium hydroxide and supplements your alk and calc only.....up to a point.

 

[BRB]

WHAT BRAND IS BRS?