What can I do to promote beneficial bacteria?

lavoisier

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So I went out and bought 26lbs of live rock from LFS and put it in my large refugium. Here is a couple of pics of the uglies. I'll update in a few weeks and see if this relatively small amount of rock will add enough bacteria to make a difference. If this doesn't help, I'll try 100lbs from TBS in February.

25lb live rock added.jpg
The uglies.jpg
12.13.19 sand.jpg
 

sixty_reefer

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So I went out and bought 26lbs of live rock from LFS and put it in my large refugium. Here is a couple of pics of the uglies. I'll update in a few weeks and see if this relatively small amount of rock will add enough bacteria to make a difference. If this doesn't help, I'll try 100lbs from TBS in February.

25lb live rock added.jpg
The uglies.jpg
12.13.19 sand.jpg

Have you tough in adding a bacteria and bacteria food system also like zeovit or the prodibio? am having a go at the last one as it’s cheaper. I’ve always brought different pieces of rock home from different LFS but just feel that a bacteria food may be also missing for them to thrive.
 

MnFish1

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This is a question that gets asked a lot, and I think its an important one.

Its often answered from the perspective of anecdotal experience. "I added some, and my tank is doing well". Unfortunately, without a control for comparison, this might reflect a real effect of the product, or no effect at all.

Direct data on the effects of bottled bacteria on the microbiome are few and far between, but I can add a few numbers to this discussion. I recently described how in a dry rock tank with nothing added, the diversity starts low and remain slow for at least a month.

Bottled bacteria (BB), used as directed to start a cycle in these tanks, had little or no benefit for microbial diversity. Dry rock tanks after one month actually had slightly higher diversity (28% difference) than BB tanks. This pattern remained after adding an additional dose of the product and sampling a week later (44% difference in diversity). In contrast, the diversity in live rock tanks was about 3 times higher (almost a 200% difference) than in dry rock tanks.

My impression is that these products do little for diversity... further testing is certainly needed though.
There is no way they could improve diversity - since they are just a couple strains of bacteria. There is also little evidence that any added bacteria - except at the start does anything. There is evidence for this.
 

MnFish1

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There is no way they could improve diversity - since they are just a couple strains of bacteria. There is also little evidence that any added bacteria - except at the start does anything. There is evidence for this.

IMHO - testing for diversity - and claiming it will 'fix' or 'improve' a tank - Is a fools errand. Every tank has its own fish, coral, other inverts and other bacteria.

If one does a test (as some here have done - and - if I get the LINK I will as well) - and it shows 'xxxx' what does that mean for a tank - nothing...... IMHO. But - its interesting from a science perspective - so if people want to pay to do it - awesome - it will give everyone information. But - It (IMHO) will not mean anything for one's individual tank....

Lets take a couple examples:

your diversity is 'low'. and your having no problems - so what. Maybe a low diversity is great.

You diversity is 'low' and you're having problems - what are the recs? I haven't seen them - but I've seen a lot of people recommending bottled products - which does not make sense.

Your diversity is normal - and you're having a problem - it could or might not relate to the bacteria - I'm not sure that the diversity test has a 'recommended' type or quantity of bacteria.

You're diversity is normal - and you're not having a problem - good - why test?

Youre diversity is supranormal and you'r having a problem - its not a diversity problem - depending on how diversity is measured.

Your diversity is supernormal and your not having a problem. - great - youre not having a problem....


In any case - To my opinion - the only reason to test 'anything' is if you're 'having a problem'. I could get into the sensivity sensitivity, predictive value of a positive test, predictive value of a negative test. etc etc but no one seems to care here
 

Jeremy K.A.

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This is a question that gets asked a lot, and I think its an important one.

Its often answered from the perspective of anecdotal experience. "I added some, and my tank is doing well". Unfortunately, without a control for comparison, this might reflect a real effect of the product, or no effect at all.

Direct data on the effects of bottled bacteria on the microbiome are few and far between, but I can add a few numbers to this discussion. I recently described how in a dry rock tank with nothing added, the diversity starts low and remain slow for at least a month.

Bottled bacteria (BB), used as directed to start a cycle in these tanks, had little or no benefit for microbial diversity. Dry rock tanks after one month actually had slightly higher diversity (28% difference) than BB tanks. This pattern remained after adding an additional dose of the product and sampling a week later (44% difference in diversity). In contrast, the diversity in live rock tanks was about 3 times higher (almost a 200% difference) than in dry rock tanks.

My impression is that these products do little for diversity... further testing is certainly needed though.


Awesome response, thank you very much! I appreciate the detailed input
 

mta_morrow

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I use MB7, Vibrant, weekly clams I feed all the water from them and oysters goes straight in the tank, and occasionally water from the ocean.
 

AquaBiomics

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IMHO - testing for diversity - and claiming it will 'fix' or 'improve' a tank - Is a fools errand. Every tank has its own fish, coral, other inverts and other bacteria.

If one does a test (as some here have done - and - if I get the LINK I will as well) - and it shows 'xxxx' what does that mean for a tank - nothing...... IMHO. But - its interesting from a science perspective - so if people want to pay to do it - awesome - it will give everyone information. But - It (IMHO) will not mean anything for one's individual tank....

Lets take a couple examples:

your diversity is 'low'. and your having no problems - so what. Maybe a low diversity is great.

You diversity is 'low' and you're having problems - what are the recs? I haven't seen them - but I've seen a lot of people recommending bottled products - which does not make sense.

Your diversity is normal - and you're having a problem - it could or might not relate to the bacteria - I'm not sure that the diversity test has a 'recommended' type or quantity of bacteria.

You're diversity is normal - and you're not having a problem - good - why test?

Youre diversity is supranormal and you'r having a problem - its not a diversity problem - depending on how diversity is measured.

Your diversity is supernormal and your not having a problem. - great - youre not having a problem....


In any case - To my opinion - the only reason to test 'anything' is if you're 'having a problem'. I could get into the sensivity sensitivity, predictive value of a positive test, predictive value of a negative test. etc etc but no one seems to care here
I can appreciate this, it's reasonable to ask when presented with a new test, "convince me this test is needed before I do it."

I think it may help to step back from diversity in the microbiome and make an analogy. Lets talk about alkalinity for a minute.

You will find reefers who swear by 10 or even 11 dKH, and others who swear by 7 dKH. You'll find reefers who say the level isnt important, its all about the stability. You'll find reefers who say the science is settled and it's all about an interactions between nutrient levels and alkalinity. And you'll find others who disagree with every statement on this list. Youll even find reefers who don't measure alkalinity but still grow great corals.

With all that diversity of opinion, still I don't think you'll find many reefers claiming theres no value to an alkalinity test. Maybe your situation doesnt call for an alkalinity test. But I bet we can all agree its a tool with a place.

In a hobby where people add bottle after bottle of products that claim to contain bacteria or food for bacteria (despite a conspicuous lack of direct evidence in most cases)... where people ship rocks submerged in water to preserve the microbial community... a hobby where microbial problems are often visible to the naked eye (cyanobacteria)... I think it's safe to say we have widespread agreement that the microbial community matters.

Now to diversity specifically. What is the optimum level of diversity? Is more always better? Is it a saturating function where enough is enough, and more brings no benefit? Is some other aspect of the system more important than diversity? I don't know. I don't think anyone does. Diversity is just one metric for describing the community. Its one of many numbers in the report.

Not everyone who runs an ICP test is looking for metals, and not everyone who tests their microbiome is testing for diversity. I've found them both of these useful for my own tank, and I bet others will too. But if not everyone does, that is OK too, I think that given enough data and experiments we can all eventually arrive at a consensus about what aspects of the microbiome matter. At the very least, we can have a great time debating the details along the way!
 

lavoisier

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I appreciate what you are doing and the way you are going about it. I wish you a huge grant to expand your work! I will be availing myself of your service sometime in the next several months in order to get a baseline for my tank and then I could see myself do an annual test to "see" what is happening in my tank. It may be some time before the information becomes useful but, who knows, maybe you'll find some strong correlations sooner and we'll all get better at keeping our wonderful organisms.
 

MnFish1

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I can appreciate this, it's reasonable to ask when presented with a new test, "convince me this test is needed before I do it."

I think it may help to step back from diversity in the microbiome and make an analogy. Lets talk about alkalinity for a minute.

You will find reefers who swear by 10 or even 11 dKH, and others who swear by 7 dKH. You'll find reefers who say the level isnt important, its all about the stability. You'll find reefers who say the science is settled and it's all about an interactions between nutrient levels and alkalinity. And you'll find others who disagree with every statement on this list. Youll even find reefers who don't measure alkalinity but still grow great corals.

With all that diversity of opinion, still I don't think you'll find many reefers claiming theres no value to an alkalinity test. Maybe your situation doesnt call for an alkalinity test. But I bet we can all agree its a tool with a place.

In a hobby where people add bottle after bottle of products that claim to contain bacteria or food for bacteria (despite a conspicuous lack of direct evidence in most cases)... where people ship rocks submerged in water to preserve the microbial community... a hobby where microbial problems are often visible to the naked eye (cyanobacteria)... I think it's safe to say we have widespread agreement that the microbial community matters.

Now to diversity specifically. What is the optimum level of diversity? Is more always better? Is it a saturating function where enough is enough, and more brings no benefit? Is some other aspect of the system more important than diversity? I don't know. I don't think anyone does. Diversity is just one metric for describing the community. Its one of many numbers in the report.

Not everyone who runs an ICP test is looking for metals, and not everyone who tests their microbiome is testing for diversity. I've found them both of these useful for my own tank, and I bet others will too. But if not everyone does, that is OK too, I think that given enough data and experiments we can all eventually arrive at a consensus about what aspects of the microbiome matter. At the very least, we can have a great time debating the details along the way!
Dont get me wrong - I'm not criticizing the idea - or the research - I think it will be extremely interesting to see what bacteria are where in my tank. I was speaking only of the 'benefits' of diversity alone - not this test.
 

Paul B

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I go down to a muddy salt water bay, pick up a porous looking rock and throw it in. I also collect mud for the same reason.
 

Phyber

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A big ball of cheato in sump and NO filter socks, let nature do it's thing.

I followed all the prescribed methods, socks, carbon, GFO etc... Then a fellow reefer said try the "hybrid Trident method". Zero to no water changes, no socks, skimmer (dry skim) and dose Alk and Calcium (and the occassional Mag) after about 3 mos both tanks coral growth took off. Fish & nems got better color and growth. Keep feeding simple - pellets twice a day via auto feeders and frozen shrimp & littleneck clams as "Sunday Brunch". The biggest thing keep your hands out of tank as much as possible.

So the hybrid method worked better? I'm in the same boat but don't run gfo...I've let go of my twice a month 30% water changes and am down to once a month now at 30%.

I just can't let go of my filter socks for some reason. I like the water being clear, but it's hard for me to get nitrate above 0.20.
 

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So the hybrid method worked better? I'm in the same boat but don't run gfo...I've let go of my twice a month 30% water changes and am down to once a month now at 30%.

I just can't let go of my filter socks for some reason. I like the water being clear, but it's hard for me to get nitrate above 0.20.

For me, yes hybrid version of the Triton method is working. I don't do filter socks, haven't done a water change in mos and I dose Alk & Cal roughly 18ml per day ea. No GFO, I do run a small amount of carbon in bags in each sump. The carbon and skimmers keep water clean. One note, since doing this I do have to clean my glass more often, maybe 2-3 times a week.
 

Phyber

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For me, yes hybrid version of the Triton method is working. I don't do filter socks, haven't done a water change in mos and I dose Alk & Cal roughly 18ml per day ea. No GFO, I do run a small amount of carbon in bags in each sump. The carbon and skimmers keep water clean. One note, since doing this I do have to clean my glass more often, maybe 2-3 times a week.

Are you having issues keeping nutrient levels up or down ? In still a younger tank and .easier very low if at all for nutrients, but I got cyano and dirty glass all the time. No hair algae. I just might need bacteria to handle the cyano while I wait on nutrients to rise and hold? I dose aminos aslo about twice a week along with my daily fish feedings
 

Mical

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My nutrients seem pretty stable/level. I feed pellets twice daily and chopped up frozen shrimp/clams on Sunday for nems. I do also dose CoralAmino, 10ml weekly in ATO water.
 
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With my time off I’ve been doing a little research on my own health mainly on the microbiome of our gut. I found a product call Prebiotic Thrive that is supposed to feed the good bacteria already in our gut and starve the bad bugs. Would a product like this work in a reef tank? It’s not a probiotic with bacteria in it just food for the good stuff.
 

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